To Fingersitchy:
If you get over not being able to get over thinking people aren't getting over it, then I'll get over thinking you're not getting over not being able to get over thinking people aren't getting over it.
F1 fan - 14 years ago
Decision on pole depends on if you're a Ferrari fan or not, doesn't it ?
No. I'm a huge Ferrari fan and I'm VERY unhappy with the team orders.
Vicweir - 14 years ago
I can't believe that so few people appear not to have heard the phrase ".......is faster than you" given to a driver when his faster team mate wants to overtake and the team wishes to avoid an accident! I thought it was common knowledge; I've certainly heard it used by other teams and race engineers to drivers.
Clearly team orders are a part of team management during a race and I do think they need clarification if this one little phrase causes such a furore, although I would have thought Red Bull's forgetting to inform Webber of their wishes and the result of that would have inspired a faster reaction from the FIA than this. But then we're talking Ferrari (although under new management since the original Schumacher/ Barrichello insult to the sport and fans' intelligence) and Alonso who, sadly to my mind, appears to be the devil incarnate to a certain faction.
Alex Winstanley - 14 years ago
Vulvan Vulver, your point answers your question! Ferrari needed both their drivers in the top 2 positions to get the maximum points. Alonso was closing in on Massa. In order to avoid a collision and to reduce the risk of both cars being taken out they needed the fastest car in front. Thus, Rob Smedleys comment" Alonso is faster than you". Everyone knew what they had to do!
Alex Winstanley - 14 years ago
This is what Webber said after his front wing was taken off his car and put on Vettel's car.
"Obviously I can see why a team may at certain points have to favour a driver with more points in the championship, if there are only enough resources to fully support one of us.
"It's now understood that, should we face this unlikely dilemma again, preference will go to the championship points leader."
It is clear from this that ALL teams will favour the championship leader when they have to choose between their two drivers. Team order is not pre-set but is determined by performance. Alonso was doing better than Massa, as he had done for the whole season, and was the championship leader at the time. Thus it is clear that Ferrari need to make sure Alonso gets the points he needs. EVERY other team would have done the same in their position and any team that says they wouldn't are liars.
Peter Maslen - 14 years ago
If Ferrari are not penalised for breaking the rules then it is obvious one can buy the FIA and orchistrate reslts. Alonso, Massa and Ferrari need points deducted for their behaviour in Germany. This is the only way to penalise them.
Vulcan Viewer - 14 years ago
Alonso thinks he is Michael Schumacher's natural successor, more so that Micheal himself now. Of course, that's complete tosh. He's been making a nuisance of himself for the past three or four years, and I really can't understand why any team hires him. Perhaps he and Ferrari deserve each other?
In my view, a team should consist of one or more cars (T cars), one driver (with substituions allowed if that driver becomes unavailable for any reason - to enable a team to continue with it's quest of winning the manufacturers title) and one set of garage staff. For manufacturers that want to run more than one team there could be an A team and a No.1 team (not A and B or 1 and 2). There should be a separate garage for each "team". There should be no communication allowed between teams other than the normal level that is allowed at the moment. Feel free to discuss/criticise.
What I want to know is why do teams think it's necessary to interfere in the drivers world championship anyway? Their aim is to win the manufacturers championship. Something that requires the drivers not to crash into one another, but which doesn't make any sense when both your drivers are in 1st and 2nd place.
Paul Kirk - 14 years ago
Interesting opinions by all! Someone called F1 a "team game", it's NOT a " game", games are played with balls and bats and other equipment, but motorsport is BUSINESS, and in every business the CEO and other top brass, commands the show so if his employees didn't jump when he said "jump" they'd get the boot. Every other team member in the Farrari team (and all the other teams) have to obey orders, so why shouldn't the drivers, who get paid a heap more? So-called team orders have been around since teams were invented,and they're not going to go away anytime soon. So the rule banning them is bulldroppings and should be banned.
I must say I'm rather surprised by the apparent emotion of some of the posters here, they obviously aren't in touch with reality!
PK.
J Holmes - 14 years ago
First of all I am a Ferrari Fan.
I knew when one of the commentators said the wrong driver is in front meaning Massa that somewhere along the line he would be told to let that person passed I said as much to my other half he said it will not happen team orders are banned,Yeah right they are. (will not say his name as I dislike him so much.)
If he was supposed to be so fast why on earth could he just not pass Massa at some point.He is acts like a child throwing a tantrum if he does not get his own way.
He is a total cheat that was proved when he was at McLaren.He was not going to be No.1 driver and he did not like that.Team orders will always be the in one form or another that will never change.100k fine is NOTHING to Ferrari to really stop all these team orders is to really come down hard on any team who breaks this farce of a rule fining them does nothing to stop those orders that is the only way to stop it.
Lex - 14 years ago
Surely if Vettel was such a threat, he'd have caught and passed the 'slower' Massa!
I think Ferrari have been takeing PR classes from Christian Horner! Imagine what we'd all be saying now if Massa had have won fair and square on the anniversary of his accident!
Imagine the scenes on the podium - Ferrari, Alonso and the F1 Management could have milked the PR machine by their reaction to Felipe winning.... unfortunately they didn't see that aspect!
Alan J - 14 years ago
Craig Chamberlain, completely agree with you.
On a related note, it would appear that Ferrari have learned the lesson from Valencia and the Lewis Hamilton safety car fiasco that you're better off breaking the rules and seeing what comes of it rather than sticking to the letter of the law and being disadvantaged.
Race control have been at the heart of far too many controversial incidents this season and inconsistency, slow decision-making and a seemingly ad hoc penalty system is doing the sport no favours.
Seems to me FOTA and the FIA need to get together to sort their rules and penalty procedures out, starting with the abolition of the pointless and universally flouted rule banning team orders.
Nishant Virmani - 14 years ago
Being a Red Bull fan i was looking forward to them being DQ'd :P
Francis - 14 years ago
I'm a Ferrari fan and I'm pretty happy they got 1-2. I'm just tremendously disappointed that they had to implement those team orders. I had faith that Fernando could've passed Felipe on the fly - I guess Fernando was just annoyed and afraid that he'd pull a Vettel-on-Webber overtake. I don't know why Ferrari allowed it... I blame Domenicali. Either way, it's sad and very disappointing. I hope Ferrari can win some more - LEGITIMATE WINS.
Fingersitchy - 14 years ago
Get over it! It's a team sport, by and for the teams. The jockeys are there just to do their bidding. Dry your tears, you'll get over it...
Dave C - 14 years ago
Its discraceful - but not surprising. Another debatable Alonso win! The FIA must take action - otherwise remove therule. You feel cheated when watching something like that. If its a team sport then bookies shouldn't take bets on individual winners.
mo kahn - 14 years ago
Alonso is a mercurial character. There was a lot of coded messages being transmitted between the drivers and teams. When Alonso came on the radio and asked "isn't he the number two" which according to me was a warning being sounded by Alonso that he will attack and will overtake irrelevant to the consequences. He was already wronged when Vettel squeezed him against the pitwall at start forcing him to lift and he was toying with Massa today with his sheer pace and superior racecraft. We've seen the preceeding race (Silverstone) that he is not afraid to take the fight to his teammate. So when he fired that coded warning, Ferrari had two choices, face the possibility of both or one of their cars being eliminiated or to order Alonso through. And with the effort it took by Ferrari and every member of their factory to make the car the way it turned out, the decision was in the best interest for the team and an honour for their hardwork. We all know Massa is no match for Alonso, we all saw Alonso was closing in at will and even took a lunge at Massa. He is no Kimi, Massa must knows that all too well now. And besides Massa should have not made it so evident about it and saved the embarrasment. Didn't Button do so in Istanbul? and Mark for Vettel? So its nothing new, but neighter Button or Mark made it so obvious about it. So I think its Massa which should shoulder the blame, simple for Massa, if you don't like whats being told to you then go find another team, but not make mockery of things when asked to follow orders and destroy otherwise a wonderful race. Wonder what Stefan would say to Massa, he was clearly upset with Massa which was evident on the podium.
ETM - 14 years ago
I like Massa and do feel sorry for what he had to do. If he had done a better job earlier in the season he wouldn’t have been in this position.
People remind me of Captain Renault in Casa Blanca: “I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here”. We are past the halfway point in the season. This is not really a sport, it is a business and as a business the team is going to do what it can to maximize outcomes for the teams benefit. Refusing to admit to this is not going to make it any less true.
tracy - 14 years ago
i'm upset because we're being treated like idiots-team orders have always been present in f1 and i have no problem with it-however the way it's done is ridiculous and to lie about it is just dumb
What a Formula 1 farce, i looked forward to watching a proper race with real racing. However i feel that i completely wasted my time watching this rubbish when Rob Smedley gave the message to Massa that Alonso was faster.The formula 1 audience are being insulted and treated as if we are all morons and will believe any lies that they care to feed us. Ferrari should be stripped of the points from this race and a derisory albeit substantial fine will count for nothing.Formula 1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing, unfortunately it is also the pinnacle of cheating and blatant team tactics and team orders. Perhaps Massa's contract obliges him to do this, but we were all denied a good duel between Massa and Alonso, sadly you could easily tell that the Ferrari personnel were economical with the truth when interviewed by the TV team. I will watch the race next week to see if we get more of the same, what a shame Formula 1 cannot do better than this.
Peter Freeman - 14 years ago
@ Craig Chamberlain
You miss the point of the rule and the point being made here entirely.
If Red Bull give one driver an advantage, its not the same as ordering one driver to let the other pass.
F1 is a competition between teams, AND drivers. The FIA recognised that fact when they introduced the banning of team orders. If Ferrari have only one driver in contention to win the WC, this is not the fault of the FIA nor the fans, so why does that give Ferrari the right to disrespect both by breaking the rules?
If Alonso had tried to overtake Massa and both drivers had crashed, this would have benefited their competitors. By Ferrari breaking the rules, they have cheated their competitors. Look at Red Bull in Turkey, the drivers fought according to the rules and crashed, Red Bull lost out and their competitors gained. Why should Ferrari be exempt of running the risks crashing during overtaking by cheating? Vettel may have benefited if Ferrari had let their drivers, drive competitively, according to the rules and the spirit of the sport. If Ferrari do not like the rules and the spirit of the sport then they should leave.
Similarly if you do not like the rules and the spirit of the sport I suggest that you do indeed stop watching. Perhaps you might find WWE more appropriate entertainment if you enjoy watching fix outcomes.
mango - 14 years ago
Join this facebook group to show your support to Felipe and against the farce that was this race: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Felipe-Massa-is-the-true-winner-of-the-German-GP-2010/141490462536449
AM - 14 years ago
I'm raging about today. It's an absolute disgrace. This cannot be called a sport when teams are allowed to get away with fixing races. I don't care if it happened in the past, it doesn't make it right and in no way did I like that it happened in the past. IMO Michael Schumacher wouldn't have won half of what he did without contractual obligations working in his favour.
This is racing folks...or at least it should be. If you're worthy, you should be able to get past your team-mate and other drivers using your talent. If you can't, tough. You have no right to demand a place nor does a team have the right to fix a race result. It spoils it for the fans and gifts hollow victories.
Alonso might not have been directly involved today but he's shown himself to be a poor champion and a petulant child. If Alonso can't get by Massa fair and square perhaps he needs to up his game. Massa was in front and holding up no-one. As the guy in front it's up to other drivers to pass him.
Ferrari aren't going to win the driver's or constructor's championships this year so they whole thing was utterly pointless and made them and the sport look a complete sham.
Peter Lindblom - 14 years ago
Ever since Barichello had to stop for Schumacher in the Austrian GP 2002 I secretly muse for every mishap Ferrari runs into, They''ve spoiled the sport and they''re keep doing it. $100000 is peanuts for Ferrari, a cheap price to pay for making their own rules and not having to obey them as other teams do. Ironically Jean Todt who gave the orders in 2002 is the president of the FIA now so Ferrari can probably do as they please. Why look, or even worse, pay for the spectacle when who wins the race is decided in the pits and not on the track? Shame on you Ferrari, and on the stewards for not having the guts to give a penalty that hurts. Our last hope stands to the World Motor Sport Council but everyone wants to sit in Ferraris lap so that will probably come to nothing. F1 just lost a lot of credibility.
$100,000 is all they get for this blatant disregard of a rule?
Pass on a yellow 20s place drop penalty
speed under safety car 5s place drop penalty
pass safety car or gain advantage through cutting corners =drive through penalty
put sport into an absolute disgrace, show us $100,000 and we forgive you.
PATHETIC!
This does help me in my own pool, but morally it makes me sick. Can't Alonso pass without having his hands held?
Massa was forced to abide by the blatant disregard of the rule, both should be DQ'd despite Massa being the victim
SKWD - 14 years ago
As Flash Bristow pointed out, Massa was told "you can win this". How can Massa trust his team? How can we trust Ferrari, on any matter, when they are clearly so duplicitous as to lie on open, monitored radio channels?
Luca - 14 years ago
Felipe lucked into the lead because Vettel was so obsessed with knobbling Fernando he left the track free for him. Frankly, I am amazed that Massa forced the team to make the call. He has been AWOL most of the season and Alonso has been carrying the horse on his back for months. In fact no other team would have extended Felipe's contract after his crash and this is poor thanks for the investment Ferrari have continued to make in him. As for Smedley ... someone get me a violin ...
GrumpyOldGit - 14 years ago
A blatant and disgusting breach of a very clear rule. It matters not if you agree with team orders or not - it is against the rules and if found out should be punished. A fine of 100k is nothing to Ferrari but is the highest the stewards can exact. Both places should be forfeited to teach everyone that the rules are there for a reason. If the teams do not agree with this rule then they should lobby for change, not just disregard it. Is this going to be another case of Ferrari International Assistance or will the FIA actually take strong action for once?
Steve - 14 years ago
Mildly annoyed yes. But I understand the position they are in. They have a driver that can win the World Championship this year so they have to maximize everything....
As a life long Ferrari fan I am very annoyed with it, I'm also an Alonso fan but Massa was going to win the race.
Ferrari you should be ashamed you are letting us down.
ferrari fan since 18 years - 14 years ago
Julie Brown, as a ferrari fan, I am disgusted with Ferrari.
This was a pathetic display on all levels.
They could have had a masterful 1-2, with Massa winning. People would cheer them, go nuts in a positive way.
Now? All negative, a shame, a fraud, rigiing, etc.
Ronan Baird - 14 years ago
Totally agree with Jo Evans. Massa was the only one who had the guts not to lie in the press conference. Stay true Felipe. Don't become a liar like the others. I, also, am not a Ferrari fan and would rather have seen Felipe win than the team I support. He deserved it. He also deserves to be fighting for the championship. Too bad who's ahead on points. Let them all fight for it and get the points they deserve.
James Consterdine - 14 years ago
What a load of fuss about nothing, and that's coming from somebody who doesn't particularly like Ferrari.
How many Ferrari drivers have a realistic chance of the Championship? One. Alonso.
The team orders rule is stupid. Teams should be able to use their two cars however they see fit.
When this happens in the last races of the season nobody complains, it's just unfortunate that Ferrari have got themselves into this position so early in the season.
Jo Evans - 14 years ago
It wasn't just Massa letting Alonso past that left a sour taste, it was Ferrari's blatant disregard and disrespect for the millions of fans watching. Do they think we're stupid? Alonso just whines like a toddler to get what he wants and I really felt for Rob Smedley and Felipe whose body language said it all. In my opinion, Massa was the only one today that acted with any integrity and Kudos to him for having the balls not to lie in the press conference - just wish that Rob had done the same. I genuinely rate Smedley and I know that Ferrari pay his wages but I don't understand how he can try and talk away what he said during the race. The team don't seem to have learned anything from Austria 2002. Pity...
Chris Hall - 14 years ago
"
Amazing how it is always Ferrari who commits team order offenses... yet we must all believe that McLaren, Red Bull, Brawn GP and Renault never ever committed a team order offense since rule 39.1 was created... absolute nonsense. Ferrari should be commended for those times earlier this year where Alonso was not given his way when Massa lead, but the one time when Alonso was faster and Massa's lack of pace could have affected Alonso's position to Vettel... Ferrari did the right thing. Why is it called a team when team mates must compete, insane, thus my solution, scrap teams and have 24 different teams OR scrap the team order rule
Posted by Stephano Radaelli on July 25th 2010, 4:54pm"
I totally agree with Stephano, oh and thanks Bruce
F1London - 14 years ago
@Candan Ceylan
Whilst I can sympathise with your point this is a little different - personally I think team orders should be allowed so they are clear and open - it is a you say a team sport.
The problem with today is twofold - firstly however wrong / stupid / hard to police it is team orders ARE presently banned and Ferrari enacted them blantently. This without question fixed the race and robbed the viewing public of a potentially great battle. It is likely the result was changed from how it would have been.
Secondly - because other teams, at least on track, allow racing - IF Alonso wins the championship by a small margin a good case could be had that he gained from rules that cost Webber / Vettel (crashing whilst racing) and almost Hamilton / Button (almost crashed !) points. You can't allow rules to be broken without punishment.
The far punishment would be a reversal of the positions and a fine - this is inline with how it probably would have played out.
And I've seen little evidence to suggest Alonso was significantly quicker on track to the point where he could have overtaken.
What a big fuss about nothing, I didn't realise that F1 fans were so naive! Team orders may have been banned but they still occur for heavens sake!
Just last week Red Bull gave Vettel a wing worth 0.1sec per lap after taking it off Webber's car. Why did they do this? Because Vettel was ahead in the championship and by doing this they gave him the pole position. Where is the difference? Okay, Vettel messed up the race and didn't take the advantage given to him but Red Bull still gave a team order which should have decided the race in Vettel's favour.
Ferrari have had a string of bad luck which has placed them in a position where realistically only Alonso can expect to be in contention moving forwards. They legitimately had complete control of the race and the only reason Massa got the lead is because Vettel nearly put Alonso in the wall at the start. Massa was locking wheels all over the place trying to keep Alonso behind him and clearly would have run out of talent if Alonso had really had a go at him which I believe would have happened towards the end if Massa had not moved over. The consequences of the potential collision would have put both Ferrari drivers out of contention for the WDC and Ferrari would have looked stupid.
Alonso IS faster than Massa and has been all season with almost no exceptions. I like Massa but he has just not delivered the goods this season and it makes no sense for Ferrari to concede BOTH championships just to make Massa happy. The are almost certain to lose the constructor's championship so the WDC is the only thing left to pursue this year.The alternative is that they forget all about the 2010 season and start work on the 2011 car. Surely none of us want that to happen as we will all lose out in that case by not seeing Ferrari take on Red Bull and McLaren in the remainder of the season.
Ferrari should not have been fined and if the result is affected in any way as a result of the WMSC hearing then I will seriously consider walking away from F1 as a spectator of some 30 years! Team orders should be permitted openly and the decisions should be left up to the team and drivers who will still need to justify decisions to their fans and fans of F1 as a whole. That should be enough to discourage unnecessary team orders.
Candan Ceylan - 14 years ago
This German GP shows me how hypocrite people are. Is is ok when Hamilton were negotiating with the team for Button not passing him in Turkey or it is ok when Redbull were taking the wing from Webber's car in GB. But this is not ok, load of crap! All of them are team orders in different ways and favouring one driver over another is not a bad thing. Because F1 is a team sport.
Abuelo Paul - 14 years ago
As far as I can see, in all the press reports, web sites, official FIA listing, etc etc........the Formula 1 drivers championship features first. Then comes the constructors championship. I would venture to suggest that the whole idea of motor sport is to see who is the best driver and that the supporting, supplying manufacturer is secondary. Unfortunately Ferrari try to rule the roost. And Alonso never has been or will be a "teamplayer"
vinc2555 - 14 years ago
on 1 side i am happy for ferrari and for alonso because of the drivers championship (i am a ferrari fan)
on the other side i am unhappy because massa had to win this after 1 jear without winning and after hungary he deserved it and he is one of the most sympathetic driver
As a lifelong Ferrari fan, I would normally be overjoyed by a Ferrari victory, singing along with the anthem and cheering as the trophy is lifted. Instead today I sat silent. What a terrible shame to take victory away from Massa. Earlier in the race Rob Smedley had told Massa "Come on, you can win this!" and I thought "Fab, no team orders - I can sit back and enjoy it!" This was then soured when poor Rob had to convey the "message".
I appreciate that Massa and Alonso are both employees of Ferrari and it's a team game, but the team still won 43 points regardless of the order their drivers finished. For once, I agree that the FIA should punish them. I'd like to see a time penalty added to Alonso so Massa could regain the win, but that looks unlikely as all he did was take an opportunity which was presented to him.
How depressing, this is not good for the sport and extremely disheartening for loyal fans like me.
Stephano Radaelli - 14 years ago
Amazing how it is always Ferrari who commits team order offenses... yet we must all believe that McLaren, Red Bull, Brawn GP and Renault never ever committed a team order offense since rule 39.1 was created... absolute nonsense. Ferrari should be commended for those times earlier this year where Alonso was not given his way when Massa lead, but the one time when Alonso was faster and Massa's lack of pace could have affected Alonso's position to Vettel... Ferrari did the right thing. Why is it called a team when team mates must compete, insane, thus my solution, scrap teams and have 24 different teams OR scrap the team order rule
Chris J - 14 years ago
This act by Ferrari shows me that Formula One really hasn't moved on from Austria 2002. The argument that team orders have always been a part of F1 misses the point. They're illegal now, according to the rules, and the fans clearly want to see an open fight. Certain elements of F1 still don't seem to understand this. Of course all the teams would manipulate results if they could, but it's not really a sport then, is it?
Bruce - 14 years ago
100% agree with Chris Hall. It's naive to assume no one else does it, ferrari's mistake was to be so blatant. I really feel for felipe, I actually cried when he lost the championship 2 years ago, so as a ferrari fan this hurts, but I'm going to follow team orders and be pragmatic about the whole thing.
Victoria - 14 years ago
Sport exists for fans, fans want to see racing and if there is no racing then there will be no fans to support it.
Gary Smith - 14 years ago
Reverse the 1/2, the fine is good. Good statement to teams that it is not acceptable. They brought in this rule for a good reason. Needs to be enforced.
Tony - 14 years ago
@ Konstantin..
I'm a massive McLaren fan, but I would have been more than happy if Massa had won
Chris Hall - 14 years ago
I have no problem with team orders and they should be legal because they have, are and always will be a part of Formula One because at the end of the day it is a team sport and people forget that. 2 will not go into 1. only one driver can be champion and the team will (rightly) want to back the one in the best position to do so.
Now I admit I am a fan of Ferrari and of Massa so I felt bad for him, he did deserve to win the race but he is out of running for the championship, ok not mathematically but realistically Alonso is there best chance and so they need to back him 100% and get maximum points. Your joking yourself if you think any other team would have done nothing.
Team orders happen all the time, the only difference is you dont know about, this time you did.
I think its a shame, especially for the fans, but you know what. I'll watch the Indy Car race this afternoon were there will be none of that nonsense and I'll not think too much about that fake F1 result.
I dont think people mind when it is done intelligently, when Button and Hamilton fought it out round three corners when Button overtook beyond the no-racing stage of the Mclaren plan, or even the 'Red Bull 1 use the good fuel mixture, red Bull 2 use the thinned out mix', which was even better because it was still *racing*. It is just the blatant 'you move over' that makes people unhappy, I think. Ferrari not really caring what the fans want, not caring about the fact we pay their bills by watching the sport...
Phil - 14 years ago
Massa was robbed & the fans were robbed, Alonso is just a cheating selfish whinger.
But well done to Rob Smedley and Massa for following those team orders in a way that made it so obvious.
Konstantin - 14 years ago
I think the result is more the expression of the frustration of many guys here because Ferrari trashed Macca and not because Ferrari wants to win both championships and proceeded accordingly in order to achieve the result
Jezz Bowden - 14 years ago
So team orders are allowed and the stewards have no balls!
Disgraceful let-off, it's the absolute minimum they could have gotten away with imposing and still be seen to do something! They clearly didn't believe Ferrari's frankly pathetic attempts to back track once they realised it was going down badly so this means that rule 39.1 is now officially defunct! 100k is approximate to a slap on the wrists in F1, more for being so obvious about it than actually breaking a very clear rule.
Simon Sherburn - 14 years ago
Alonso could not do it on the track even with a "faster" car so gets the team to fix his problem. Seems like it is his way or crying to press (like his time at McLaren).
Abuelo Paul - 14 years ago
It seems that Ferrari still barrel their way through F1 as if they own the rights to it, this arrogant attitude that the rules are for the "other" teams. Strangely enough in other controversial incidents, McLarengate in 2007, Singapore 2008, Germany today, Señor Alonso has been at the root. So, they do make a very good couple, don't ya think? The Spanish/Italian connection... hmm. Family iar, connections.
Re "Decision on pole depends on if you're a Ferrari fan or not, doesn't it ?"
Not if you are a sportsman
Andy - 14 years ago
this makes a joke of F1 I watch this sport for racing, not team orders. It is in the rules that it shouldn't be there. It was cheating 100% black and White. What a joke!
Sian James - 14 years ago
I'm a Ferrari fan and i'm very unhappy about it.
Tony - 14 years ago
@Julie..."Decision on pole depends on if you're a Ferrari fan or not, doesn't it ?"
No, It depends if you want integrity in the sport, or not
Michael Lee - 14 years ago
It's wrong to do this so early in the season - and not much better to do it later - maybe ok on the last race but only if your team mate wants to do it as opposed to being TOLD to do it.
I think they should strip Ferrari of all German GP points just to get the message over - lets face it Ferrari now the score when it comes to team orders.
Julie Brown - 14 years ago
Decision on pole depends on if you're a Ferrari fan or not, doesn't it ?
To Fingersitchy:
If you get over not being able to get over thinking people aren't getting over it, then I'll get over thinking you're not getting over not being able to get over thinking people aren't getting over it.
Decision on pole depends on if you're a Ferrari fan or not, doesn't it ?
No. I'm a huge Ferrari fan and I'm VERY unhappy with the team orders.
I can't believe that so few people appear not to have heard the phrase ".......is faster than you" given to a driver when his faster team mate wants to overtake and the team wishes to avoid an accident! I thought it was common knowledge; I've certainly heard it used by other teams and race engineers to drivers.
Clearly team orders are a part of team management during a race and I do think they need clarification if this one little phrase causes such a furore, although I would have thought Red Bull's forgetting to inform Webber of their wishes and the result of that would have inspired a faster reaction from the FIA than this. But then we're talking Ferrari (although under new management since the original Schumacher/ Barrichello insult to the sport and fans' intelligence) and Alonso who, sadly to my mind, appears to be the devil incarnate to a certain faction.
Vulvan Vulver, your point answers your question! Ferrari needed both their drivers in the top 2 positions to get the maximum points. Alonso was closing in on Massa. In order to avoid a collision and to reduce the risk of both cars being taken out they needed the fastest car in front. Thus, Rob Smedleys comment" Alonso is faster than you". Everyone knew what they had to do!
This is what Webber said after his front wing was taken off his car and put on Vettel's car.
"Obviously I can see why a team may at certain points have to favour a driver with more points in the championship, if there are only enough resources to fully support one of us.
"It's now understood that, should we face this unlikely dilemma again, preference will go to the championship points leader."
It is clear from this that ALL teams will favour the championship leader when they have to choose between their two drivers. Team order is not pre-set but is determined by performance. Alonso was doing better than Massa, as he had done for the whole season, and was the championship leader at the time. Thus it is clear that Ferrari need to make sure Alonso gets the points he needs. EVERY other team would have done the same in their position and any team that says they wouldn't are liars.
If Ferrari are not penalised for breaking the rules then it is obvious one can buy the FIA and orchistrate reslts. Alonso, Massa and Ferrari need points deducted for their behaviour in Germany. This is the only way to penalise them.
Alonso thinks he is Michael Schumacher's natural successor, more so that Micheal himself now. Of course, that's complete tosh. He's been making a nuisance of himself for the past three or four years, and I really can't understand why any team hires him. Perhaps he and Ferrari deserve each other?
In my view, a team should consist of one or more cars (T cars), one driver (with substituions allowed if that driver becomes unavailable for any reason - to enable a team to continue with it's quest of winning the manufacturers title) and one set of garage staff. For manufacturers that want to run more than one team there could be an A team and a No.1 team (not A and B or 1 and 2). There should be a separate garage for each "team". There should be no communication allowed between teams other than the normal level that is allowed at the moment. Feel free to discuss/criticise.
What I want to know is why do teams think it's necessary to interfere in the drivers world championship anyway? Their aim is to win the manufacturers championship. Something that requires the drivers not to crash into one another, but which doesn't make any sense when both your drivers are in 1st and 2nd place.
Interesting opinions by all! Someone called F1 a "team game", it's NOT a " game", games are played with balls and bats and other equipment, but motorsport is BUSINESS, and in every business the CEO and other top brass, commands the show so if his employees didn't jump when he said "jump" they'd get the boot. Every other team member in the Farrari team (and all the other teams) have to obey orders, so why shouldn't the drivers, who get paid a heap more? So-called team orders have been around since teams were invented,and they're not going to go away anytime soon. So the rule banning them is bulldroppings and should be banned.
I must say I'm rather surprised by the apparent emotion of some of the posters here, they obviously aren't in touch with reality!
PK.
First of all I am a Ferrari Fan.
I knew when one of the commentators said the wrong driver is in front meaning Massa that somewhere along the line he would be told to let that person passed I said as much to my other half he said it will not happen team orders are banned,Yeah right they are. (will not say his name as I dislike him so much.)
If he was supposed to be so fast why on earth could he just not pass Massa at some point.He is acts like a child throwing a tantrum if he does not get his own way.
He is a total cheat that was proved when he was at McLaren.He was not going to be No.1 driver and he did not like that.Team orders will always be the in one form or another that will never change.100k fine is NOTHING to Ferrari to really stop all these team orders is to really come down hard on any team who breaks this farce of a rule fining them does nothing to stop those orders that is the only way to stop it.
Surely if Vettel was such a threat, he'd have caught and passed the 'slower' Massa!
I think Ferrari have been takeing PR classes from Christian Horner! Imagine what we'd all be saying now if Massa had have won fair and square on the anniversary of his accident!
Imagine the scenes on the podium - Ferrari, Alonso and the F1 Management could have milked the PR machine by their reaction to Felipe winning.... unfortunately they didn't see that aspect!
Craig Chamberlain, completely agree with you.
On a related note, it would appear that Ferrari have learned the lesson from Valencia and the Lewis Hamilton safety car fiasco that you're better off breaking the rules and seeing what comes of it rather than sticking to the letter of the law and being disadvantaged.
Race control have been at the heart of far too many controversial incidents this season and inconsistency, slow decision-making and a seemingly ad hoc penalty system is doing the sport no favours.
Seems to me FOTA and the FIA need to get together to sort their rules and penalty procedures out, starting with the abolition of the pointless and universally flouted rule banning team orders.
Being a Red Bull fan i was looking forward to them being DQ'd :P
I'm a Ferrari fan and I'm pretty happy they got 1-2. I'm just tremendously disappointed that they had to implement those team orders. I had faith that Fernando could've passed Felipe on the fly - I guess Fernando was just annoyed and afraid that he'd pull a Vettel-on-Webber overtake. I don't know why Ferrari allowed it... I blame Domenicali. Either way, it's sad and very disappointing. I hope Ferrari can win some more - LEGITIMATE WINS.
Get over it! It's a team sport, by and for the teams. The jockeys are there just to do their bidding. Dry your tears, you'll get over it...
Its discraceful - but not surprising. Another debatable Alonso win! The FIA must take action - otherwise remove therule. You feel cheated when watching something like that. If its a team sport then bookies shouldn't take bets on individual winners.
Alonso is a mercurial character. There was a lot of coded messages being transmitted between the drivers and teams. When Alonso came on the radio and asked "isn't he the number two" which according to me was a warning being sounded by Alonso that he will attack and will overtake irrelevant to the consequences. He was already wronged when Vettel squeezed him against the pitwall at start forcing him to lift and he was toying with Massa today with his sheer pace and superior racecraft. We've seen the preceeding race (Silverstone) that he is not afraid to take the fight to his teammate. So when he fired that coded warning, Ferrari had two choices, face the possibility of both or one of their cars being eliminiated or to order Alonso through. And with the effort it took by Ferrari and every member of their factory to make the car the way it turned out, the decision was in the best interest for the team and an honour for their hardwork. We all know Massa is no match for Alonso, we all saw Alonso was closing in at will and even took a lunge at Massa. He is no Kimi, Massa must knows that all too well now. And besides Massa should have not made it so evident about it and saved the embarrasment. Didn't Button do so in Istanbul? and Mark for Vettel? So its nothing new, but neighter Button or Mark made it so obvious about it. So I think its Massa which should shoulder the blame, simple for Massa, if you don't like whats being told to you then go find another team, but not make mockery of things when asked to follow orders and destroy otherwise a wonderful race. Wonder what Stefan would say to Massa, he was clearly upset with Massa which was evident on the podium.
I like Massa and do feel sorry for what he had to do. If he had done a better job earlier in the season he wouldn’t have been in this position.
People remind me of Captain Renault in Casa Blanca: “I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here”. We are past the halfway point in the season. This is not really a sport, it is a business and as a business the team is going to do what it can to maximize outcomes for the teams benefit. Refusing to admit to this is not going to make it any less true.
i'm upset because we're being treated like idiots-team orders have always been present in f1 and i have no problem with it-however the way it's done is ridiculous and to lie about it is just dumb
What a Formula 1 farce, i looked forward to watching a proper race with real racing. However i feel that i completely wasted my time watching this rubbish when Rob Smedley gave the message to Massa that Alonso was faster.The formula 1 audience are being insulted and treated as if we are all morons and will believe any lies that they care to feed us. Ferrari should be stripped of the points from this race and a derisory albeit substantial fine will count for nothing.Formula 1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing, unfortunately it is also the pinnacle of cheating and blatant team tactics and team orders. Perhaps Massa's contract obliges him to do this, but we were all denied a good duel between Massa and Alonso, sadly you could easily tell that the Ferrari personnel were economical with the truth when interviewed by the TV team. I will watch the race next week to see if we get more of the same, what a shame Formula 1 cannot do better than this.
@ Craig Chamberlain
You miss the point of the rule and the point being made here entirely.
If Red Bull give one driver an advantage, its not the same as ordering one driver to let the other pass.
F1 is a competition between teams, AND drivers. The FIA recognised that fact when they introduced the banning of team orders. If Ferrari have only one driver in contention to win the WC, this is not the fault of the FIA nor the fans, so why does that give Ferrari the right to disrespect both by breaking the rules?
If Alonso had tried to overtake Massa and both drivers had crashed, this would have benefited their competitors. By Ferrari breaking the rules, they have cheated their competitors. Look at Red Bull in Turkey, the drivers fought according to the rules and crashed, Red Bull lost out and their competitors gained. Why should Ferrari be exempt of running the risks crashing during overtaking by cheating? Vettel may have benefited if Ferrari had let their drivers, drive competitively, according to the rules and the spirit of the sport. If Ferrari do not like the rules and the spirit of the sport then they should leave.
Similarly if you do not like the rules and the spirit of the sport I suggest that you do indeed stop watching. Perhaps you might find WWE more appropriate entertainment if you enjoy watching fix outcomes.
Join this facebook group to show your support to Felipe and against the farce that was this race: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Felipe-Massa-is-the-true-winner-of-the-German-GP-2010/141490462536449
I'm raging about today. It's an absolute disgrace. This cannot be called a sport when teams are allowed to get away with fixing races. I don't care if it happened in the past, it doesn't make it right and in no way did I like that it happened in the past. IMO Michael Schumacher wouldn't have won half of what he did without contractual obligations working in his favour.
This is racing folks...or at least it should be. If you're worthy, you should be able to get past your team-mate and other drivers using your talent. If you can't, tough. You have no right to demand a place nor does a team have the right to fix a race result. It spoils it for the fans and gifts hollow victories.
Alonso might not have been directly involved today but he's shown himself to be a poor champion and a petulant child. If Alonso can't get by Massa fair and square perhaps he needs to up his game. Massa was in front and holding up no-one. As the guy in front it's up to other drivers to pass him.
Ferrari aren't going to win the driver's or constructor's championships this year so they whole thing was utterly pointless and made them and the sport look a complete sham.
Ever since Barichello had to stop for Schumacher in the Austrian GP 2002 I secretly muse for every mishap Ferrari runs into, They''ve spoiled the sport and they''re keep doing it. $100000 is peanuts for Ferrari, a cheap price to pay for making their own rules and not having to obey them as other teams do. Ironically Jean Todt who gave the orders in 2002 is the president of the FIA now so Ferrari can probably do as they please. Why look, or even worse, pay for the spectacle when who wins the race is decided in the pits and not on the track? Shame on you Ferrari, and on the stewards for not having the guts to give a penalty that hurts. Our last hope stands to the World Motor Sport Council but everyone wants to sit in Ferraris lap so that will probably come to nothing. F1 just lost a lot of credibility.
$100,000 is all they get for this blatant disregard of a rule?
Pass on a yellow 20s place drop penalty
speed under safety car 5s place drop penalty
pass safety car or gain advantage through cutting corners =drive through penalty
put sport into an absolute disgrace, show us $100,000 and we forgive you.
PATHETIC!
This does help me in my own pool, but morally it makes me sick. Can't Alonso pass without having his hands held?
Massa was forced to abide by the blatant disregard of the rule, both should be DQ'd despite Massa being the victim
As Flash Bristow pointed out, Massa was told "you can win this". How can Massa trust his team? How can we trust Ferrari, on any matter, when they are clearly so duplicitous as to lie on open, monitored radio channels?
Felipe lucked into the lead because Vettel was so obsessed with knobbling Fernando he left the track free for him. Frankly, I am amazed that Massa forced the team to make the call. He has been AWOL most of the season and Alonso has been carrying the horse on his back for months. In fact no other team would have extended Felipe's contract after his crash and this is poor thanks for the investment Ferrari have continued to make in him. As for Smedley ... someone get me a violin ...
A blatant and disgusting breach of a very clear rule. It matters not if you agree with team orders or not - it is against the rules and if found out should be punished. A fine of 100k is nothing to Ferrari but is the highest the stewards can exact. Both places should be forfeited to teach everyone that the rules are there for a reason. If the teams do not agree with this rule then they should lobby for change, not just disregard it. Is this going to be another case of Ferrari International Assistance or will the FIA actually take strong action for once?
Mildly annoyed yes. But I understand the position they are in. They have a driver that can win the World Championship this year so they have to maximize everything....
As a life long Ferrari fan I am very annoyed with it, I'm also an Alonso fan but Massa was going to win the race.
Ferrari you should be ashamed you are letting us down.
Julie Brown, as a ferrari fan, I am disgusted with Ferrari.
This was a pathetic display on all levels.
They could have had a masterful 1-2, with Massa winning. People would cheer them, go nuts in a positive way.
Now? All negative, a shame, a fraud, rigiing, etc.
Totally agree with Jo Evans. Massa was the only one who had the guts not to lie in the press conference. Stay true Felipe. Don't become a liar like the others. I, also, am not a Ferrari fan and would rather have seen Felipe win than the team I support. He deserved it. He also deserves to be fighting for the championship. Too bad who's ahead on points. Let them all fight for it and get the points they deserve.
What a load of fuss about nothing, and that's coming from somebody who doesn't particularly like Ferrari.
How many Ferrari drivers have a realistic chance of the Championship? One. Alonso.
The team orders rule is stupid. Teams should be able to use their two cars however they see fit.
When this happens in the last races of the season nobody complains, it's just unfortunate that Ferrari have got themselves into this position so early in the season.
It wasn't just Massa letting Alonso past that left a sour taste, it was Ferrari's blatant disregard and disrespect for the millions of fans watching. Do they think we're stupid? Alonso just whines like a toddler to get what he wants and I really felt for Rob Smedley and Felipe whose body language said it all. In my opinion, Massa was the only one today that acted with any integrity and Kudos to him for having the balls not to lie in the press conference - just wish that Rob had done the same. I genuinely rate Smedley and I know that Ferrari pay his wages but I don't understand how he can try and talk away what he said during the race. The team don't seem to have learned anything from Austria 2002. Pity...
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Amazing how it is always Ferrari who commits team order offenses... yet we must all believe that McLaren, Red Bull, Brawn GP and Renault never ever committed a team order offense since rule 39.1 was created... absolute nonsense. Ferrari should be commended for those times earlier this year where Alonso was not given his way when Massa lead, but the one time when Alonso was faster and Massa's lack of pace could have affected Alonso's position to Vettel... Ferrari did the right thing. Why is it called a team when team mates must compete, insane, thus my solution, scrap teams and have 24 different teams OR scrap the team order rule
Posted by Stephano Radaelli on July 25th 2010, 4:54pm"
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I totally agree with Stephano, oh and thanks Bruce
@Candan Ceylan
Whilst I can sympathise with your point this is a little different - personally I think team orders should be allowed so they are clear and open - it is a you say a team sport.
The problem with today is twofold - firstly however wrong / stupid / hard to police it is team orders ARE presently banned and Ferrari enacted them blantently. This without question fixed the race and robbed the viewing public of a potentially great battle. It is likely the result was changed from how it would have been.
Secondly - because other teams, at least on track, allow racing - IF Alonso wins the championship by a small margin a good case could be had that he gained from rules that cost Webber / Vettel (crashing whilst racing) and almost Hamilton / Button (almost crashed !) points. You can't allow rules to be broken without punishment.
The far punishment would be a reversal of the positions and a fine - this is inline with how it probably would have played out.
And I've seen little evidence to suggest Alonso was significantly quicker on track to the point where he could have overtaken.
What a big fuss about nothing, I didn't realise that F1 fans were so naive! Team orders may have been banned but they still occur for heavens sake!
Just last week Red Bull gave Vettel a wing worth 0.1sec per lap after taking it off Webber's car. Why did they do this? Because Vettel was ahead in the championship and by doing this they gave him the pole position. Where is the difference? Okay, Vettel messed up the race and didn't take the advantage given to him but Red Bull still gave a team order which should have decided the race in Vettel's favour.
Ferrari have had a string of bad luck which has placed them in a position where realistically only Alonso can expect to be in contention moving forwards. They legitimately had complete control of the race and the only reason Massa got the lead is because Vettel nearly put Alonso in the wall at the start. Massa was locking wheels all over the place trying to keep Alonso behind him and clearly would have run out of talent if Alonso had really had a go at him which I believe would have happened towards the end if Massa had not moved over. The consequences of the potential collision would have put both Ferrari drivers out of contention for the WDC and Ferrari would have looked stupid.
Alonso IS faster than Massa and has been all season with almost no exceptions. I like Massa but he has just not delivered the goods this season and it makes no sense for Ferrari to concede BOTH championships just to make Massa happy. The are almost certain to lose the constructor's championship so the WDC is the only thing left to pursue this year.The alternative is that they forget all about the 2010 season and start work on the 2011 car. Surely none of us want that to happen as we will all lose out in that case by not seeing Ferrari take on Red Bull and McLaren in the remainder of the season.
Ferrari should not have been fined and if the result is affected in any way as a result of the WMSC hearing then I will seriously consider walking away from F1 as a spectator of some 30 years! Team orders should be permitted openly and the decisions should be left up to the team and drivers who will still need to justify decisions to their fans and fans of F1 as a whole. That should be enough to discourage unnecessary team orders.
This German GP shows me how hypocrite people are. Is is ok when Hamilton were negotiating with the team for Button not passing him in Turkey or it is ok when Redbull were taking the wing from Webber's car in GB. But this is not ok, load of crap! All of them are team orders in different ways and favouring one driver over another is not a bad thing. Because F1 is a team sport.
As far as I can see, in all the press reports, web sites, official FIA listing, etc etc........the Formula 1 drivers championship features first. Then comes the constructors championship. I would venture to suggest that the whole idea of motor sport is to see who is the best driver and that the supporting, supplying manufacturer is secondary. Unfortunately Ferrari try to rule the roost. And Alonso never has been or will be a "teamplayer"
on 1 side i am happy for ferrari and for alonso because of the drivers championship (i am a ferrari fan)
on the other side i am unhappy because massa had to win this after 1 jear without winning and after hungary he deserved it and he is one of the most sympathetic driver
As a lifelong Ferrari fan, I would normally be overjoyed by a Ferrari victory, singing along with the anthem and cheering as the trophy is lifted. Instead today I sat silent. What a terrible shame to take victory away from Massa. Earlier in the race Rob Smedley had told Massa "Come on, you can win this!" and I thought "Fab, no team orders - I can sit back and enjoy it!" This was then soured when poor Rob had to convey the "message".
I appreciate that Massa and Alonso are both employees of Ferrari and it's a team game, but the team still won 43 points regardless of the order their drivers finished. For once, I agree that the FIA should punish them. I'd like to see a time penalty added to Alonso so Massa could regain the win, but that looks unlikely as all he did was take an opportunity which was presented to him.
How depressing, this is not good for the sport and extremely disheartening for loyal fans like me.
Amazing how it is always Ferrari who commits team order offenses... yet we must all believe that McLaren, Red Bull, Brawn GP and Renault never ever committed a team order offense since rule 39.1 was created... absolute nonsense. Ferrari should be commended for those times earlier this year where Alonso was not given his way when Massa lead, but the one time when Alonso was faster and Massa's lack of pace could have affected Alonso's position to Vettel... Ferrari did the right thing. Why is it called a team when team mates must compete, insane, thus my solution, scrap teams and have 24 different teams OR scrap the team order rule
This act by Ferrari shows me that Formula One really hasn't moved on from Austria 2002. The argument that team orders have always been a part of F1 misses the point. They're illegal now, according to the rules, and the fans clearly want to see an open fight. Certain elements of F1 still don't seem to understand this. Of course all the teams would manipulate results if they could, but it's not really a sport then, is it?
100% agree with Chris Hall. It's naive to assume no one else does it, ferrari's mistake was to be so blatant. I really feel for felipe, I actually cried when he lost the championship 2 years ago, so as a ferrari fan this hurts, but I'm going to follow team orders and be pragmatic about the whole thing.
Sport exists for fans, fans want to see racing and if there is no racing then there will be no fans to support it.
Reverse the 1/2, the fine is good. Good statement to teams that it is not acceptable. They brought in this rule for a good reason. Needs to be enforced.
@ Konstantin..
I'm a massive McLaren fan, but I would have been more than happy if Massa had won
I have no problem with team orders and they should be legal because they have, are and always will be a part of Formula One because at the end of the day it is a team sport and people forget that. 2 will not go into 1. only one driver can be champion and the team will (rightly) want to back the one in the best position to do so.
Now I admit I am a fan of Ferrari and of Massa so I felt bad for him, he did deserve to win the race but he is out of running for the championship, ok not mathematically but realistically Alonso is there best chance and so they need to back him 100% and get maximum points. Your joking yourself if you think any other team would have done nothing.
Team orders happen all the time, the only difference is you dont know about, this time you did.
I think its a shame, especially for the fans, but you know what. I'll watch the Indy Car race this afternoon were there will be none of that nonsense and I'll not think too much about that fake F1 result.
I dont think people mind when it is done intelligently, when Button and Hamilton fought it out round three corners when Button overtook beyond the no-racing stage of the Mclaren plan, or even the 'Red Bull 1 use the good fuel mixture, red Bull 2 use the thinned out mix', which was even better because it was still *racing*. It is just the blatant 'you move over' that makes people unhappy, I think. Ferrari not really caring what the fans want, not caring about the fact we pay their bills by watching the sport...
Massa was robbed & the fans were robbed, Alonso is just a cheating selfish whinger.
But well done to Rob Smedley and Massa for following those team orders in a way that made it so obvious.
I think the result is more the expression of the frustration of many guys here because Ferrari trashed Macca and not because Ferrari wants to win both championships and proceeded accordingly in order to achieve the result
So team orders are allowed and the stewards have no balls!
Disgraceful let-off, it's the absolute minimum they could have gotten away with imposing and still be seen to do something! They clearly didn't believe Ferrari's frankly pathetic attempts to back track once they realised it was going down badly so this means that rule 39.1 is now officially defunct! 100k is approximate to a slap on the wrists in F1, more for being so obvious about it than actually breaking a very clear rule.
Alonso could not do it on the track even with a "faster" car so gets the team to fix his problem. Seems like it is his way or crying to press (like his time at McLaren).
It seems that Ferrari still barrel their way through F1 as if they own the rights to it, this arrogant attitude that the rules are for the "other" teams. Strangely enough in other controversial incidents, McLarengate in 2007, Singapore 2008, Germany today, Señor Alonso has been at the root. So, they do make a very good couple, don't ya think? The Spanish/Italian connection... hmm. Family iar, connections.
Re "Decision on pole depends on if you're a Ferrari fan or not, doesn't it ?"
Not if you are a sportsman
this makes a joke of F1 I watch this sport for racing, not team orders. It is in the rules that it shouldn't be there. It was cheating 100% black and White. What a joke!
I'm a Ferrari fan and i'm very unhappy about it.
@Julie..."Decision on pole depends on if you're a Ferrari fan or not, doesn't it ?"
No, It depends if you want integrity in the sport, or not
It's wrong to do this so early in the season - and not much better to do it later - maybe ok on the last race but only if your team mate wants to do it as opposed to being TOLD to do it.
I think they should strip Ferrari of all German GP points just to get the message over - lets face it Ferrari now the score when it comes to team orders.
Decision on pole depends on if you're a Ferrari fan or not, doesn't it ?