Tuesday Poll: the Goldstone Report
27 Comments

  • Chloe - 12 years ago

    A correction: 'with an Israeli controlled Gaza

  • Chloe/Chleo - 12 years ago

    I now realise I shouldn't have publically stated my age on this thing - i wouldn't call it the act of stereotyping the adolescent generation but rather generalising......

    Thanks for the heads up! Because, clearly, my typos are the most important issue here - nothn beats a gd ol' spllcheck! Brad by the way, when Bush bombed baghdad there WAS questioning. A lot of it - from all of us sitting at home watching the TV and an Iraqi's shoes.......(which wasn't at all necessary). I don't know about you but there definitely was, let's call it.....ill humour?

    Moving back to the main point here - the actual topic of the discussion, who really acted outside of the international humaitarian law? Take a few steps back, the IHL: 'defines the conduct and responsibilities of belligerent nations, neutral nations and individuals engaged in warfare, in relation to each other and to protected persons, usually meaning civilians'. Civilians..in this case are untouchable. That is one of the many Laws of War (and one of the basic laws of IHL). Follow it. Now there are some people directing their views towards the idea of religion, namely the jews and muslims within Israel and Palestine. Of course, without straying to this very topic of two different religions- according to the Hebrew bible or the old testament: it takes us to the King of Israel and his orders to spare enemy prisoners 'You shall not slay them. Would you slay those whom you have taken captive with your sword and with your bow? Set bread and water before them.' Islamic law follows the same idea, that a prisoner should not be killed as he "cannot be held responsible for mere acts of belligerency." No one needs quotations from two religious passages to know what's right and what's wrong but that is what was written years ago. Our job in the present is to take it in and act upon it. So the gist of this notion? Both countries should abide by their similar principles - but they aren't so both countries are in the wrong and are responsible for their acts of terrorism?.. (as young Charles half pointed out. Thank you Charles.) No. The real question here is who started it? Some say Hamas, but Israel took away their home in exchange for dumping them with a unnecessarily part Israeli controlled Gaza. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

  • brad - 12 years ago

    I have no idea why people would say that Israel committed war crimes when Hamas in Gaza sent thousands of rockets into southern Israel way before Israel retaliated. Referring to the first comment:Israel targeted those schools and mosques because of the fact that Hamas stored rockets and weapons in those places like a bunch of cowards who would want innocent civilians to get killed rather than themselves. If people living in other countries, families were getting killed by rockets on a regular basis then im sure that they would without any hesitation retaliate. When America bombarded Baghdad with bombs nobody ever questioned them, so why when Israel defends herself does the media show how bad Israel is when really they are defending themselves?

  • Mabruk - 12 years ago

    Iedan, Here is my Newsflash 4 you: All territories in that part of the world were at one point or another occupied by European powers, so no one was really independent, but it was known that this piece of land was called Palestine, which was occupied by the Brits when your Jews were arriving in large numbers in the 30s.
    The six day war which was overly subsidized and maneuvered by both the US and the France, doesn't legitimize your occupation as it would have been an occupation of Jordan and Egypt in that case, even if we assume that your dreadful attempt to rewrite history is even remotely true.

    As for Lebanon, you really need to follow your own advice by 'following the news'; Israel still occupies parts of Lebanon until this minute. It is occupying the North part of what is know to be the farms of "Shab'a".

    As far as Hizbolla, c'mon! who was the coward really? the one who freed his land from Israel occupation or Israelis who were so frustrated that they started bombing hospitals, bridges, schools, churches, even children home of "Qana" didn't survive the Israeli deliberate pin-point targeting of innocents and ambulances carrying wounds. Qana, which later became known as the massacre of Qana, or the shelling of Qana 1 in 1996, the shelling of Qana 2 in 2006 (shelling of Qana, Wikipedia)

    With all due respect i recommend that you do more readings outside of your Israeli prescribed literature. Who knows you may find it interstice to different points of view.
    Remember! being a Jew doesn't mean you need to support the criminal entity of Israel, many decent Jewish people are ashamed of what their people are committing against the defenseless Palestinians.

  • Mo - 12 years ago

    Lonni!

    I agree with you, no justification of killing civilians.

    "Also, I should add, there is no true occupation."

    Are you sure? cause the last time i checked the UN and the international community (including the US) regards the WB and Gaza as an occupied land.

    Iedan!

    Yes! the Afghan war is justified, but the Iraqi? you must be kidding!

    Bush was elected for a second term after the Iraqi war. should this be considered an act war against ME people? should they expect the American people to be hold accountable to their choice?

    this logic thing goes both way you know!

  • Iedan - 12 years ago

    Dear Mo,

    Like Lonni said, there is no justification for violence. And my point was not that they elected Hamas, but that because they elected Hamas any move that is done by Hamas would affect them all, since Hamas “represent”the entire state. If they were recognized as an autonomic state by the UN, it would have been a reason to declare war and nobody would have said anything about it... the problem is they aren't... thus your stuck in a situation were war-rules are quite vague...
    With regards to Bush and Blair, I don't think the fact that they were elected was the cause, but when they decided to take action in Iraq and Afghanistan the counteractions (9/11 and Kings-cross) were directed against the countries that are ruled by these leaders... You see my point??? It's no justification, it's pure logic since any action would lead to a reaction.

    Dear Mabruk,

    It is funny to read how you keep on hampering it's the Palestinian territories that became occupied by the Jews... Well here is a newsflash for you, they were never Palestinian territories... Before 1948 (The Israeli independents war) and 1967 (six days war) these territories were ruled by Egypt (Gaza strip) and Jordan (West bank)... These two countries never gave the Palestinians their independents and neither showed any will to do so... When these territories were captured by Israel during the different wars, it was legally optional to transfer all the Palestinians to Egypt and Jordan, since war laws permit it. Israel in a more humane action, decided to let the Palestinians live their lives peacefully in Israeli territories (N.B. A lot of them even got Israeli citizenship). Egypt and Jordan on the other hand had declare they withdraw their Egyptian/Jordanian citizenship, to prevent massive immigration to these countries. In a summary, I really pity the Palestinians for this situation, but I can't imagine how they are going to solve it by firing rockets. Opening boarders would only occur when munition wont be transported into Gaza, that would eventually will be lunched into Israel.

    About the situation in Lebanon, I'm not sure if you follow the news, but a few missiles were already fired from Lebanon into Israel... Does Israel also occupy Lebanon??? But in this case, it can be regarded as war declaration... and unlike the situation when Hezbollah was not in the government (2006), but just acted like cowards between the poor civilians of Lebanon (like Hamas in Gaza)...this time they are, and thus any attack would be a legitimate war declaration...

  • CJ Harwood - 12 years ago

    Richard Goldstone condemned Hamas rockets as war crimes, and this means he excluded from his report (I haven't yet read it) a law of war which prima facie applies, viz, the law of belligerent reprisals, which legalizes attacks targeting civilians and civilian objects in enemy territory (Israel), for the purpose of inducing the enemy (Israel) to terminate its war crimes, for example Israel's blockade of Gaza, humanitarian supplies, looting and colonizing Israeli occupied Palestinian territory (1967 oPt), including East Jerusalem, and armed force to enforce those two violent war crimes. He should write an addendum to his report, reporting this law and applying his mind and that law to Israeli war crimes and Hamas rockets.

    Israel's remedy, against the rockets, is to terminate its violent war crimes. Israel's attack on Gaza, on the pretext of inducing Hamas to stop firing rockets, is a war crime, namely, armed force to enforce its criminal blockade. The rockets being a prima facie lawful reprisal, there is no basis for a self-defense claim by Israel. Their self defense is to stop their blockade (a war crime). Just as the U.S. remedy, against “terrorism,” is not to murder foreigners, rather to terminate its own violent war crimes, namely, complicity in Israel's violent war crimes. The U.S. remedy is to reverse its criminal policy and lead the attack against Israel, with U.N. sanctions, terminate all U.S. aid to Israel, to coerce Israel to withdraw its 500,000 settlers from the Palestinian land Israel has looted and colonized, and the Golan Heights and the Shaba Farms (Lebanon). -CJ Harwood (Warlaw)
    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/israel-us-war-blockade-reprisals.html
    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/ic-settlements.html
    http://warlaw.wordpress.com/

  • Mabruk - 12 years ago

    Jose Arroyo, You people have no shame. YOU TOOK THEIR HOME! from them, and you have the audacity to call them terrorists? What world do you live in? You didn't give them Gaza, You jailed them in it, after you kicked them out of their private lands and properties. Palestinians fight to exist, if they didn't you would have annihilated them long time ago, and if they only had a small fraction of the weapons you have, it would have been a different situation. A situation similar to what happened to Israeli soldiers in Lebanon at the hands of Hizballa fighters. But Israel never played fair, nor humane, they ran like scared rabbits from Lebanese fighters but show guts in front of little boys and girls of Gaza. What happen to nations' rules of engagement?

    Palestinians are in occupation resistance status, which is permitted by all laws of any land.

    The Jewish apartheid racist entity (These are not my words, but that of Israel current prime minster who calls it, like many others, the state for Jews only), is a criminal element in our life time, which means that we should all do something about it, by lighting a candle for Palestine everywhere, by wearing the Palestinian scarf (which thanks to Palestine supports is in fashion now). by talking to people everywhere about this cruel and deadly injustice, at universities, high schools (For Chloe). By doing school reports and papers on the issue. Make your voice heard, make it louder as the racist Jewish lobby's propaganda is everywhere in America. God Bless.

  • Lonni - 12 years ago

    Hi Mo.

    The answer is no one has the right to kill civilians, whether that is Israel or Palestinians. Those is Gaza fired first, and I don't see any outrage. Strange.

    Also, I should add, there is no true occupation.

  • Mo - 12 years ago

    Hi Iedan!

    it also worth mentioning that Britons and Americans had elected Bush and Blair too. Does this justify the attack on UK and USA by Al Qaidda?
    you did not answer the basic question, Do Palestinian have the right to resist occupation?

  • Jose Arroyo - 12 years ago

    Excellent points ledan.

    The UN recognizes Israel's right to exist, yet they are the only country who can not defend their citizens from countless rockets. Israelis have the freedom to speak out against their country, which they rightfully do. But can you imagine if a Palestinian attempted to do the same in Gaza? Immediate persecution.

    While Israel gave land to the Palestinians in Gaza, they had gotten nothing in return besides terror. Mike Anderson makes the least valid points and only spews propoganda or something he learned today from a liberal blog.

    What have the terrorists done? I believe the link in ledan's comment will tell the story. It's full of disgusting acts of incivility. And to elect Hamas is just begging for misery.

  • Iedan - 12 years ago

    I agree it's wrong to heart innocent civilians and that it should be avoided by all means. But with all the respect, if that was the main concern of the Hamas militants, then they would have lunched their rockets from an open field where nobody would get heart... assuming they're smart enough to conclude that such an action would lead to a counter-action...Secondly, even the best attempts to avoid casualties might go wrong.... just think about want happens in Afghanistan in the last year... attempts to stop terrorists (who by the way started the fight, just like Hamas did) end up in deaths of innocent civilians as well, hospitals, schools, children, women, men, etc...

    Worth mentioning that Hamas was elected by the Palestinians as their rightful government, and thus any decision, stupid and irresponsible as it may be, directly affects all of them (although, Israel didn't accused all the Palestinians for these actions and tried to target Hamas only)... This rule accounts for any group that selects its leader. When the leader takes action the group must pay the consequences...

    To make my point even clearer, if you take all the terrorist activities (suicide bombs, etc...) into account, you would find that the deaths among the civilians of Israel was almost as high as that among Palestinians. (see the following link for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_militant_groups_suicide_attacks)

    N.B. I don't justify violence of any kind, I'm just trying to put things in prospective.
    So before pointing the finger in the direction of Israel, which as a state has the right and obligation to protect their civilians, just try to put yourself in their shoes and think what would you have done.

  • Mike Anderson - 12 years ago

    Sorry Chloe, i misspelled your name

  • Mike Anderson - 12 years ago

    Charles Young's attack on the young but better sensed, Chleo. Better than your empty argument. Your attack on her is similar to that of Israel on helpless Palestinians. A fact: 1400 Palestinians civilians died, with 13 Israeli with 3 of them being civilians and the rest are soldiers who were in combat 'IN' Gaza.

    Chleo's grammar is an issue to you when many of your fellow Israelis are building their happiness on top of the Palestinians' misery.
    Why don't you answer the question of; What did the Palestinians do to deserve your gutless genocide of their race. What crimes did they commit to have their lives being dismantled, homes being demolished, kids killed in schools, pregnant women slaughtered, kicked out of their rightful land, farms and towns.
    Chleo knows that they have done nothing. Isn't that the sense, which you obviously lack, the sense we all only dreamed of having when were 16.

  • Charles Young - 12 years ago

    Clearly, at 16, you haven't formulated your arguments - or your grammar.

    CNN is not owned by Jews. It's owned by Ted Turner, who has come under fire by Jewish groups in the past.

    The terrorists were the aggressors by sending rockets into Israel - the sovereign Jewish state. The terrorists are not interested in peace, only more war.

  • Jen - 12 years ago

    Yeah. im a teenager too.
    Wait isnt CNN owned by Jews?
    Uhh....awkwarddd.......

  • Chloe - 12 years ago

    I just realised. Almost everyone here probably chose 'Israel violated international humanitarian law' ( or something of the sort)... its only 42%..?
    Ummm. nyway. guys get voting

  • Chloe - 12 years ago

    Im 16. Try not to judge, i havnt fully formulated my opinions yet! Oneil, mabruk, robert. I couldn't agree more. And Loreen my friend (i mean unknown lady person).......why do you think the palestinians are using those spots as 'hiding places'? Think of it with moral sense. Why would any country or any human being for that want to attack an innocent little boy in school? Or attack a praying woman in a temple? Or a family of 4 right in their very own house? In fact the questions is who?......Israel did. To the palestinians, it was an act of protection - something to say 'Stop' dont hurt us there. I mean you can't. Please?'Its just not done that way. They (israel) had the piece of mind to attack their 'hiding places', when their (the palestinians) goal blatantly was to tell them to move on to another set of victims. And not hit. War is war, but it DOES NOT include my life, your life or that of a baby. (Btw, my eyes went hot when numerous little boys and girls were fished out from wrecks and rushed to hospitals dripping and bleeding, weeping yet silenced and scarred forever. What if it was you?)
    David, i just read your comment. Yes. the jews are powerful (that can only be a compliment ryt?) Compare their GDPs. Its like America attacking Sudan! WHAT? (well that was an exaggeration, but a similar concept).The palestinians have your land. Grow up please. Why act ruthless about a petty issue like that? I'm just getting started with life. And even i can say - ignore all the heated discussions and debates, ignore all the killing and mutilation, ignore the costs for repair, ignore all this WAR........ dudes....ure murdering over land? Stop it..

  • David Waugh - 12 years ago

    It is obvious that the Israelis were shoved into a helpless nation's land and now they are claiming ownership of said land.
    They believe that they would be able to overpower the Palestinians through war crimes and other Acts against Humanity.
    Everybody sees this but nobody takes action because the Zionists and Israelis have powerful friends in powerful places. Unfortunatley Palestine has no way of fighting back against the Jews due to their immense firepower (Provided by the Secular Nation)

  • kais - 12 years ago

    It’s the battle of David and Goliath. Israel is obviously the aggressor and should be persecuted for committing war crimes against innocent Palestinian children. Palestinians have the right to resist Israeli occupation.

  • Loreen - 12 years ago

    This war isn't Israel against Palestinians or vs , it is Israel against Hamas (Terrorist Group). Hamas aren't only killing Israelies but also their own people!.
    Hamas targets in Israel are specificly civilians (and excuse me but this IS NOT self-defense).
    When Israel its going to attack they advice the Palestianian (in many ways as throwing flyers from the air) so they can go to a safe place. WHY? because this isn't like any other war, this war its against Terrorism...NOT Palestianians.
    Hamas hidding places are civialians houses, schools,temples... They use human shields!, thats why always so many innocent Palestinians die... while many terrorists hide .

  • Marlon - 12 years ago

    What's needed is an impartial investigation and not this kind of one-sided white wash. How can it be impartial when nothing gets said in Gaza without Hamas' say-so? And how can the UN have a "human rights" council that's dominated by countries that have no concept of what human rights are? I can see why people have big problems with this report.

  • Eli - 12 years ago

    Israel has been getting away with murder for far too long! .... literally!! With all its high-tech weapons and laser accuracy, why can't they pin-point the crimanals amongst the innocent people and only target those criminals, leaving children and the public alone.

    If killing innocent people is unavoidable, then you should change your methods and tactics, don't you think? The US should also stop kissing up to Israel, and put its foot down. Enough is enough!

  • ONEIL WESTON - 12 years ago

    Israel have been a torn in the flesh of Palestinians, and I feel Palestinians are been ignored by the UN and the World, US and UN were aware of the bombardment that the Israel attacked on Palestinians, they wouldn't caution and stop Israel from attacking these innocent Palestinians, the world lay back wait till thousands of civilians where killed and homes and schools where destroyed in Palestine before they acted as if they helping the war to stop, is the same Americans who sell out weapons to the Jewish to launch war on Palestinians, which is very bad, If Americans are God fearing nation they wont do such a thing, and up to date Palestinians are been cheated by the Jewish. So the US and the UN should not pretend they don't know whats going on, American is a nation who try to support war onto another nation and later they come around to act as peace keepers, trying to keep peace and solve the problem while their hands is involve in the war. Is time American stop such evil doing. We have see many disasters and economical crises happening on American of lates, well all is punishment from God, when you throw the ball to the all the ball comes back to you, remember in life what you sow is what you ripe.

  • David Safer - 12 years ago

    The actions of Palestinians in Gaza unfortunately made this military campaign by Israel impossible to avoid. Peaceful civilians in Sderot live in fear, their childrens' playgrounds lie in bunkers, and they hear the sound of missile alerts constantly.

    Terrorism does not have to have a high body count, it just has to make life unlivable. Palestinians waged a very successful campaign of terrorism against the citizens of Sderot, Israel, while the world did nothing.

    While Israel gave warnings to civilians, Palestinians hid behind them. Using innocents as a shield for combatants is the worst case of a war crime seen in this conflict.

  • Mabruk - 12 years ago

    Israel is a criminal state that the world needs to stop and look at its unbelievable genocide actions against Palestinian women and children. It is at a boiling point of morality. Jewish creditable organization has published a report saying that majority of the 1,400+ who are killed during the Israeli slaughter of Gaza were civilians and most of those were women and children. The number ranges from 900 to 1,100. The report also spoke of documented accounts from Israeli soldiers that Palestinians were regularly used as human shields. Confessed Israeli soldier spoke on terms of anonymity, fearing persecution by the Israeli army, about how they saw their colleagues holding Palestinian men and children at gun point and pushing them ahead of them. Another 26 soldiers published their anonymous accounts in a booklet compiled by Breaking the Silence, an Israeli soldiers’ organization. They describe the Israeli army’s use of human shields and deliberate targeting of civilian homes. The soldiers’ descriptions confirm information was published by the times during the assault that Jewish soldiers were given orders to shoot first and ask questions later. Several Israeli soldiers described the use of white phosphorus in Gaza. One soldier described walking on the beach in Gaza and discovering an area covered in glazed sand from a white phosphorous bomb. In one typical account, a soldier said that in pre-invasion briefings his officers said it was better to hit an innocent than hesitate to attack an enemy. “If you’re not sure, kill." "Fire power was insane.” He added, “You felt like a child playing around with a magnifying glass, burning up ants” (Sheera Frenkel, 2009)

    This speaks to kind of war the Jewish entity is waging on defenseless Palestinians, Which is happening in our lifetime. It is disgraceful to be witnessing this and stand idly by. It is evil in every definition of the word. Jewish people will be asked this question by generations to come; They will be asked about the hypocrisy. On one hand they talk about the atrocities committed by the Nazi against them and on another they are committing a greater acts of criminality and germicide against helpless Palestinians. What would they say then, i can only imagine.

    Mabruk

  • Robert Lewis - 12 years ago

    Israel clearly went overboard by targeting mosques, schools and civilians, as well as children and women not part of the battle. Tho both parties are guilty of crimes, there was overkill on Israels part. Israels use of dropping pamphlets to people so they had warning was totally ineffective since the Palestinians had now here to go within the confined quarters and highly concentrated population. The most concentrated in the world. Also, the use of white phosphorous being dropped on civilians as they were looking for cover is clearly one of the crimes against humanity Israel committed.

    Israels defiance and lack of cooperation with the (or any) investigation into war crimes speaks volumes against Israel.

    If Israel really wanted peace, security and an Israeli state accepted by the world community, and nothing else, there is a simple solution. Obama and his team is working on that as I type. Here are the ways:
    1. two state solution
    2. Stop settlements
    3. Right of Return
    4. Open Gaza from the illegal blockade that punishes innocent people as well as the innocents that are dying from what this blockade is doing. This in itself is inhumane.

    Do this and Palestine militants will have no reason to attack any Israelis and many other terror attacks throughout the world would be near non existent.

    Treat them they way you want to be treated.

    If Israel wants peace, this is the way.

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