I should also mention that most pesticides, herbicides, etc. are organic compounds, even though they are not natural products. I speak as a retired chemist with a background (M.S.) in organic chemistry
MG - Photosynthesis is an organic process. Also, your proposed conversion of methane to ammonia doesn't happen. The carbon and nitrogen cycles do not interact like that. Nice try though....
Brian - 12 years ago
Organic means based on the element carbon. Everything else is a misuse of the word.
David Sill - 12 years ago
There was no choice that fit our buying or not buying organic. Some produce we will only buy organic, such as beets. Some produce we will buy non-organic when an organic option is not available, such as bell peppers. For meat, we look for grass fed, local if possible. For eggs we look for local organic free range. We would rather buy organic or local and fix smaller portions than to save some money to have larger portions. And we eat no processed foods other than bread. Also, we save money by buying bulk rather than prepackaged foods when possible.
I enjoy my food - 12 years ago
Pat~ Organic nuts come from a forest? Nuts come from a farm.
Susan~ How do you think those pesticides get into the water, lakes, rivers and oceans?
MX~ The reason there is a certification process is so you can have something to trust. You should not trust food that doesn't have a certification. think about what is allowed to be done to grow that "food".
MG~ hahaha.
MG - Calif - 12 years ago
"Organically grown" is a fallacy. Here are the facts: 1- Basic chemistry definitions: organic vs inorganic. Organic is a material composed principally of carbon-hydron elements. Therefore, there is no such thing as an "inorganic" carrot; at least not an edible one. (Has the general public become so stupid and forgot their high school chemistry course work?) 2- Basic botany...Plants grow inorganically, not organically, i.e., all plant essential nutrients are inorganic compounds. (Don't believe me...look it up!) Apply chicken manure to the soil, soil microbes must mineralize the manure into inorganic compounds BEFORE the nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, etc., can be absorbed by the plant's roots. 3 - Compost is a synthetic fertilizer. It does not happen on it's own! It is not "natural." On the other hand, if I were to mine sulfur from a mineral deposit (Mexico has lots of it), add water, then add plagioclaze-based rock powder, also mined from a mineral deposit, and allow the sulfuric acid-water to dissolve mineral salts from the rock powder, then evaporate the water leaving behind mineral salts (which, BTW at plant-available nutrients!) and add this to the soil...is this not a "natural" fertilizer too? If I take natural gas (i.e., methane) strip off the carbon atom and replace it with a nitrogen atom (BTW...the earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen) thus making ammonia, is this not "natural." The constituents are as natural as making compost. 4 - There is no such thing as a non-toxic pesticide. The term is an oxymoron. If it is labeled/termed a pesticide, it kills! 5 - All recent (last 5-yrs) food-borne illnesses of salmonella and E. coli in produce have resulted from certified "organic" farms...not conventional farms. (Get a clue!) While the dumbed-down public seems overly concerned with chemical hazards associated with "synthetic" pesticides and fertilizers, they are grossly ignorant of the biological hazards associated with "organically" grown produce. Organic farmers are spraying their crops with manure-teas and fatty-acid chemicals that harbor and promote the growth and amplification of biological hazards; and these products are essentially unregulated by FIFRA. 6 - Most "organic" promoters and web sites expound on sustainable farming and biological diversity, yet many organic nitrogen-based fertilizers use bait fish (e.g., anchovies and sardines) farmed from our oceans; thus reducing the food supply for predatory ocean-fish (e.g., mackerel, tuna, sword fish, etc.). So much for promoting biological diversity...it is wiping-out stocks of larger ocean fish! (Hypocrites!) This said, it is promoting the growth and amplification of biological hazards - on the farm and on the produce. (Foolish) And lastly...7 –The world’s population is 7-billion, there are famines occurring and the current world population cannot be fed with using these miss-labeled “organic” farming methods; it must be done "inorganically."
Therefore, my only conclusion is that the organic farming community, and their supporters, are elitists who cannot remember their chemistry classes (smoked too much pot in high school?), are clueless with respect to what a plant needs to grow, are gullible to re-defining terms which pander to a minority, are ignorant of biological hazards while being overly-concerned with chemical hazards, are promoting the decimation of predatory fish-stocks in our oceans, and are otherwise blind to the world’s hungry and what it takes to feed them.
For what it is worth….These folks may some day actually believe that the moon is made of blue cheese, only because someone told them so.
Katie - 12 years ago
The Organic movement is the first step in the right direction. Ideally, the next step would be for a grass-fed, pastured movement of the same scale. Organic alone does not automatically mean, healthy, happy, grass-fed animal. It means that an animal may not be fed or housed well enough to maintain its health, and when it does get sick, it will not get treated. Then this animal will go to slaughter, and we will eat an untreated, sick animal. As a great lover of chicken, beef, and bacon, (not to mention animals in general) I am not on board.
When you ask a preschooler what a cow eats, they will tell you grass, not grain, corn or soy. (Would you feed a tiger cereal, and expect it to stay healthy? No, hey, that would be ridiculous! Silly person. But wait, would you feed a cow tootsie rolls with the wrapper on, and eat what becomes of it? This one sounds familiar....)
The label "vegetarian-fed" also gets tossed around more frequently now, as it reminds us of the word vegetable. These ruminants and fowl are not getting vegetables, but they also aren't eating animal parts, feces or plastics in their feed. Hooray! They are getting grains instead, and as a whole I would eat these guys over their organic counter parts, (and eat organic over conventional).
Pastured is a word to look for instead. This means that the animals literally live on a pasture. Who knew?? In some cases, they also may have their pasture supplemented with grain, but are able to eat grass if they choose to. After all, don't animals, human included, eat what they are put in front of them? But our delicious bovine friends evolved to eat grass! Our fowl friends want to eat grass and bugs and berries and worms as well. And who are we to deprive them of that?
Lastly, it is important to chose meats and dairy from reputable small farms. Not only does it help increase economic gain for your farming community, you are much more likely to be eating a healthy animal. Animals that are eating animal by-product, cramped in cages and sick as dogs, and on top of that are not getting treated for their diseases (ORGANIC!) are not healthy to be eating! Eat local meat, vegetables and dairy from a source (hint:farm) you KNOW (my guess is not the local Higgly Piggly) in which the animals are fed and treated humanely. Research the food you eat.
n the end, eat the healthiest food you can. It will save you hundreds of not thousands on medical bills down the road. Insulin and statins are expensive guys! Have a delicious (healthfully raised) steak instead.
Nutritional content of organic food is only one critical component in the choice. Non-organics degrade our air, water, and soil throughout the entire supply chain: sourcing and creating chemicals, manufacturing and shipping fertilizers and pesticides, and discarding waste. When we buy non-organic food, we are supporting the entire chemical chain, and leaving the waste in our waterways and soil, where they will endure for the generations to come. The real cost of non-organic food should include this environmental burden.
In a real sense, buying organic is paying the full price up front but buying non-organic has lots of hidden downside.
Ellen - 14 years ago
I agree with Katie "don't pesticides get absorbed through the skin of the fruit and vegetables" and up the stems and into the system of the fruit? Why would we put those things into our bodies when we have a choice? Maybe you'll die some day, but don't you want to be as healthy as possible before that time? Isn't your life and your family's life worth it? Maybe you won't eliminate all of the toxins in your system by eating organic, but at least you won't be increasing them, and the more of them you have in your system, the more likely you'll suffer the consequences.
Juli - 14 years ago
I grow most of my own "skin on" fruit and vegetables - lettuce, grapes, strawberries, tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, summer squashes, onions, shallots, garlic - as well as herbs, using no pesticides. The thicker skinned items (oranges, bananas) I will buy at a good price without demanding they be organic since I'll be discarding the skin. Those "skin on" things I cannot grow (raspberries, blueberries, apples, potatoes, etc) I have no problem paying more for in order to buy organic as the idea of eating food that has been doused in chemicals gives me the heebie jeebies. Growing things in the city in EarthBoxes is not that hard as long as you have a place where you can get sunlight for 8 hours a day.
Katie - 14 years ago
Don't pesticides get absorbed through the skin of fruit and vegetables too? And if the water supply for a plant has pesticides in it, then the product will too, won't it? It surprises me that anyone thinks pesticides are acceptable in your body. My vet says the greener the lawn, the sicker the dog. Personal experience as far as organic goes? No more lumps in my breasts since I stopped eating products that were produced from animals that had growth hormones added to them. Chew on that. :)
Susan Carroll - 14 years ago
Pesticides are Poison and have no barrier. If they are 'not' in your food, they are in your water—lakes, rivers and oceans—and so are the fish and animals that live there. Just think about it.
MX - 14 years ago
I don't believe that organic produce in our supermarkets indeed is organic- pecticide free. To me "oragnic" if it's from my grandma's garden.
Pat Cohen - 14 years ago
If you can peel it it definitely is not worth it. Sometimes, if it benefits your local CSA or other type farm, then use your judgement on how CLEAN you can get a food, and how frequently the nonorganic is not labeled because as with my local CSA, it costs to much to get the label, not because he doesn't go organic whenever it makes sense, as my local CSA does. Think before you buy. Organic nuts? Do you know a forest's history, you believe it's truly organic? With something like blueberries it makes sense, but only IF I know I can rely on the truth of the source. I'll say it again, think before you spend money uselessly. Spend it if it makes good sense and save your money elsewhere, like on sugary cereal!
I should also mention that most pesticides, herbicides, etc. are organic compounds, even though they are not natural products. I speak as a retired chemist with a background (M.S.) in organic chemistry
MG - Photosynthesis is an organic process. Also, your proposed conversion of methane to ammonia doesn't happen. The carbon and nitrogen cycles do not interact like that. Nice try though....
Organic means based on the element carbon. Everything else is a misuse of the word.
There was no choice that fit our buying or not buying organic. Some produce we will only buy organic, such as beets. Some produce we will buy non-organic when an organic option is not available, such as bell peppers. For meat, we look for grass fed, local if possible. For eggs we look for local organic free range. We would rather buy organic or local and fix smaller portions than to save some money to have larger portions. And we eat no processed foods other than bread. Also, we save money by buying bulk rather than prepackaged foods when possible.
Pat~ Organic nuts come from a forest? Nuts come from a farm.
Susan~ How do you think those pesticides get into the water, lakes, rivers and oceans?
MX~ The reason there is a certification process is so you can have something to trust. You should not trust food that doesn't have a certification. think about what is allowed to be done to grow that "food".
MG~ hahaha.
"Organically grown" is a fallacy. Here are the facts: 1- Basic chemistry definitions: organic vs inorganic. Organic is a material composed principally of carbon-hydron elements. Therefore, there is no such thing as an "inorganic" carrot; at least not an edible one. (Has the general public become so stupid and forgot their high school chemistry course work?) 2- Basic botany...Plants grow inorganically, not organically, i.e., all plant essential nutrients are inorganic compounds. (Don't believe me...look it up!) Apply chicken manure to the soil, soil microbes must mineralize the manure into inorganic compounds BEFORE the nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, etc., can be absorbed by the plant's roots. 3 - Compost is a synthetic fertilizer. It does not happen on it's own! It is not "natural." On the other hand, if I were to mine sulfur from a mineral deposit (Mexico has lots of it), add water, then add plagioclaze-based rock powder, also mined from a mineral deposit, and allow the sulfuric acid-water to dissolve mineral salts from the rock powder, then evaporate the water leaving behind mineral salts (which, BTW at plant-available nutrients!) and add this to the soil...is this not a "natural" fertilizer too? If I take natural gas (i.e., methane) strip off the carbon atom and replace it with a nitrogen atom (BTW...the earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen) thus making ammonia, is this not "natural." The constituents are as natural as making compost. 4 - There is no such thing as a non-toxic pesticide. The term is an oxymoron. If it is labeled/termed a pesticide, it kills! 5 - All recent (last 5-yrs) food-borne illnesses of salmonella and E. coli in produce have resulted from certified "organic" farms...not conventional farms. (Get a clue!) While the dumbed-down public seems overly concerned with chemical hazards associated with "synthetic" pesticides and fertilizers, they are grossly ignorant of the biological hazards associated with "organically" grown produce. Organic farmers are spraying their crops with manure-teas and fatty-acid chemicals that harbor and promote the growth and amplification of biological hazards; and these products are essentially unregulated by FIFRA. 6 - Most "organic" promoters and web sites expound on sustainable farming and biological diversity, yet many organic nitrogen-based fertilizers use bait fish (e.g., anchovies and sardines) farmed from our oceans; thus reducing the food supply for predatory ocean-fish (e.g., mackerel, tuna, sword fish, etc.). So much for promoting biological diversity...it is wiping-out stocks of larger ocean fish! (Hypocrites!) This said, it is promoting the growth and amplification of biological hazards - on the farm and on the produce. (Foolish) And lastly...7 –The world’s population is 7-billion, there are famines occurring and the current world population cannot be fed with using these miss-labeled “organic” farming methods; it must be done "inorganically."
Therefore, my only conclusion is that the organic farming community, and their supporters, are elitists who cannot remember their chemistry classes (smoked too much pot in high school?), are clueless with respect to what a plant needs to grow, are gullible to re-defining terms which pander to a minority, are ignorant of biological hazards while being overly-concerned with chemical hazards, are promoting the decimation of predatory fish-stocks in our oceans, and are otherwise blind to the world’s hungry and what it takes to feed them.
For what it is worth….These folks may some day actually believe that the moon is made of blue cheese, only because someone told them so.
The Organic movement is the first step in the right direction. Ideally, the next step would be for a grass-fed, pastured movement of the same scale. Organic alone does not automatically mean, healthy, happy, grass-fed animal. It means that an animal may not be fed or housed well enough to maintain its health, and when it does get sick, it will not get treated. Then this animal will go to slaughter, and we will eat an untreated, sick animal. As a great lover of chicken, beef, and bacon, (not to mention animals in general) I am not on board.
When you ask a preschooler what a cow eats, they will tell you grass, not grain, corn or soy. (Would you feed a tiger cereal, and expect it to stay healthy? No, hey, that would be ridiculous! Silly person. But wait, would you feed a cow tootsie rolls with the wrapper on, and eat what becomes of it? This one sounds familiar....)
The label "vegetarian-fed" also gets tossed around more frequently now, as it reminds us of the word vegetable. These ruminants and fowl are not getting vegetables, but they also aren't eating animal parts, feces or plastics in their feed. Hooray! They are getting grains instead, and as a whole I would eat these guys over their organic counter parts, (and eat organic over conventional).
Pastured is a word to look for instead. This means that the animals literally live on a pasture. Who knew?? In some cases, they also may have their pasture supplemented with grain, but are able to eat grass if they choose to. After all, don't animals, human included, eat what they are put in front of them? But our delicious bovine friends evolved to eat grass! Our fowl friends want to eat grass and bugs and berries and worms as well. And who are we to deprive them of that?
Lastly, it is important to chose meats and dairy from reputable small farms. Not only does it help increase economic gain for your farming community, you are much more likely to be eating a healthy animal. Animals that are eating animal by-product, cramped in cages and sick as dogs, and on top of that are not getting treated for their diseases (ORGANIC!) are not healthy to be eating! Eat local meat, vegetables and dairy from a source (hint:farm) you KNOW (my guess is not the local Higgly Piggly) in which the animals are fed and treated humanely. Research the food you eat.
n the end, eat the healthiest food you can. It will save you hundreds of not thousands on medical bills down the road. Insulin and statins are expensive guys! Have a delicious (healthfully raised) steak instead.
Nutritional content of organic food is only one critical component in the choice. Non-organics degrade our air, water, and soil throughout the entire supply chain: sourcing and creating chemicals, manufacturing and shipping fertilizers and pesticides, and discarding waste. When we buy non-organic food, we are supporting the entire chemical chain, and leaving the waste in our waterways and soil, where they will endure for the generations to come. The real cost of non-organic food should include this environmental burden.
In a real sense, buying organic is paying the full price up front but buying non-organic has lots of hidden downside.
I agree with Katie "don't pesticides get absorbed through the skin of the fruit and vegetables" and up the stems and into the system of the fruit? Why would we put those things into our bodies when we have a choice? Maybe you'll die some day, but don't you want to be as healthy as possible before that time? Isn't your life and your family's life worth it? Maybe you won't eliminate all of the toxins in your system by eating organic, but at least you won't be increasing them, and the more of them you have in your system, the more likely you'll suffer the consequences.
I grow most of my own "skin on" fruit and vegetables - lettuce, grapes, strawberries, tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, summer squashes, onions, shallots, garlic - as well as herbs, using no pesticides. The thicker skinned items (oranges, bananas) I will buy at a good price without demanding they be organic since I'll be discarding the skin. Those "skin on" things I cannot grow (raspberries, blueberries, apples, potatoes, etc) I have no problem paying more for in order to buy organic as the idea of eating food that has been doused in chemicals gives me the heebie jeebies. Growing things in the city in EarthBoxes is not that hard as long as you have a place where you can get sunlight for 8 hours a day.
Don't pesticides get absorbed through the skin of fruit and vegetables too? And if the water supply for a plant has pesticides in it, then the product will too, won't it? It surprises me that anyone thinks pesticides are acceptable in your body. My vet says the greener the lawn, the sicker the dog. Personal experience as far as organic goes? No more lumps in my breasts since I stopped eating products that were produced from animals that had growth hormones added to them. Chew on that. :)
Pesticides are Poison and have no barrier. If they are 'not' in your food, they are in your water—lakes, rivers and oceans—and so are the fish and animals that live there. Just think about it.
I don't believe that organic produce in our supermarkets indeed is organic- pecticide free. To me "oragnic" if it's from my grandma's garden.
If you can peel it it definitely is not worth it. Sometimes, if it benefits your local CSA or other type farm, then use your judgement on how CLEAN you can get a food, and how frequently the nonorganic is not labeled because as with my local CSA, it costs to much to get the label, not because he doesn't go organic whenever it makes sense, as my local CSA does. Think before you buy. Organic nuts? Do you know a forest's history, you believe it's truly organic? With something like blueberries it makes sense, but only IF I know I can rely on the truth of the source. I'll say it again, think before you spend money uselessly. Spend it if it makes good sense and save your money elsewhere, like on sugary cereal!