@VanillaTurtledove
He was holding the idiot ball every time he came to a worker who said they were doing something on official orders for the public good, and ignored it. If you can't see that, then I am sorry, but you are also holding the idiot ball. Spike has been shown to be smarter than that. He was a jerk in the second half of the episode, but he was holding the idiot ball for the first half.
I note that you only address the weakest and least important of my three criticisms of the episode. I'm unsure if that means you agree with the other two criticisms, or simply didn't notice the majority of my post. The plot-contrivance and subsequent forced moral is the main issue with the episode. This is the same issue as with What About Discord, and it is the same issue that you are pointing out in Crusaders of the Lost Mark.
VanillaTurtledove - 9 years ago
@Badly Drawn Turtle,
How exactly does Spike hold the "idiot ball" the entire episode? It seemed like he was between a rock and a hard place, desperately trying to do what he was told had to be done. So, through much self sacrifice, he was able to fulfill the princesses wishes to keep Twilight well rested and undisturbed. Halfway through the episode, he comes to the realization that he can exploit his newly gained power and ends up taking it too far. So, I would think the criticism, if any, would be that Spike was turned into a "jerk" in this episode instead of an "idiot", somewhat similar to Owl's Well that Ends Well (which is another episode I fully disagree is trash; granted, it may be just a sorta mediocre episode imo, but Princess Spike, I feel was legitimately well executed).
The episode in question, while not as flamboyantly dream fulfiling/ over-the-top as other episodes from the season (Cutie Map parts 1 & 2, Bloom & Gloom, Make New Friends but Keep Discord, Slice of Life, and Crusaders of the Lost Mark are wonderful examples of such), managed to maintain a very "real" dynamic of characterizations/interactions (which was actually another strong point of this season, clearly exhibited in episodes such as Amending Fences and Made in Manehatten).
I feel as though the execution of an episode is more important than what merely looks good on paper. Crusaders of the Lost Mark is a great illustration of what I mean; it has amazingly awesome things coming at you nonstop throughout the course of the episode, BUT the way the episode plays out, makes the character interactions/ characterizations (for the most part) seem completely atypical of what would happen within a cohesive, well-written narrative. Pip showing up at the door asking for help with his campaign, Diamond Tiara's mother suddenly appearing out of nowhere and Tiara's incomprehensibly abrupt change to the side of righteousness, are all things that detract from the episode very greatly imho. I would have liked to see these components brought up in previous episodes so as not to make it seem like these things are all just mere plot points stuffed in by the writers to achieve the ideal conclusion. This being said, the conclusion of this episode rectifies two long standing problems within MLP; Diamond Tiara's dead end characterizations which were extremely one-note, and lacked any depth whatsoever, as well as the monotonous "Cutie Mark Acquisition Program" which the CMC were always obsessed with, hardly allowing a single appearance of said characters without their dialogue revolving around getting their tramp stamps. Now that these two narrative vices have been done away with, the writers have more more flexibility of what they can achieve with episodes centering around the CMC as well as Diamond Tiara/ Silver Spoon. This is a very good thing. However, the plot contrivances in order to reach this conclusion were something I think could have been improved on significantly.
The reason I concentrated on Crusaders of the Lost Mark in so much detail is because that episode is one which seems to be very widely well-received by the fans, while Princess Spike is not. Therefore, it may be able to give you some insight as to why I consider the latter to be such a good episode.
On another note, What about Discord was probably the strangest episode I have ever seen, as I remember during my initial watch-through expecting a huge turnabout throughout the entirety of the episode which never came about. Either there is something I'm missing here or that episode makes no freakin' sense whatsoever.
Cranky - 9 years ago
Plane Ponies? Like half airplane, half pony? That's horrifying. Perhaps you meant Plains Ponies.
@VanillaTurtledove
Princess Spike is objectively a bad episode. Spike holds the idiot ball the whole time, and the situation leading to the disaster is utterly contrived. But those are forgivable. What is not, is that the episode's moral fails, because the writer set it up wrong; in other words, this is a case of objectively bad writing. The moral of the episode is that you shouldn't let power go to your head. Okay, great… except the culminating disaster that is supposed to make the moral clear wasn't caused by Spike being selfish. All of the parts of the chain that led to the wrecking of the hall were honest mistakes back when Spike was just following Twilight's instructions. They have no connection to the moral, which makes the moral forced.
This episode had a lot of disapproval when it came out, so it's also a bad episode by polling. Fun fact: The other worst episode of the season, by similar measures, was What About Discord, which is the only episode to have the same writer as Princess Spike. It seems we have an objectively bad writer on the team.
VanillaTurtledove - 9 years ago
Whatchu on about, Zebra lover? Princess Spike was an extremely solid episode (one of Spike's finest, might I add). Please explain to me, in detail, why you consider it to be utter trash.
And yes, Sea ponies, sea ponies, blah, blah, blah~
Other. ZEBRAS. Come on. Five seasons and Zecora remains the most underused character, with the biggest potential for future stories. Instead of redoing episodes we've seen already (Canterlot Boutique), and complete garbage (Princess Spike), the writers could actually do something good like the Zebra nation or have Zecora appear for reasons other than a magical solution to some problem.
VanillaTurtleDove - 9 years ago
I can't help but reel out of utter shame at the inevitable outcome of this poll.
The fact that Bat ponies are persisting to dominate the other options, and more importantly, the motherfucking SEA PONIES, is abso-bally-lutely beyond my comprehension.
Magnum - 9 years ago
DRAGONPONIES
Megasthe18th - 9 years ago
Other: Deer Ponies(that should be a choice, I swear...)
TyroTale - 9 years ago
I think Bat Ponies would be amazing.
The Luna novel by G.M. Berrow 'Princess Luna and the festival of the winter moon' Confirm that Bat Ponies are a race who live secluded within a mountain and often have clashes with the local dragons.
Now whether the novels are canon or not is up for debate. I look at it kinda like star wars canon, if its not contradicted by the show, its in. :)
Fluttyplushie - 9 years ago
I hit Other because I want Zebras :(
The rest are funny options, and Bat ponies are my fav on this one. But Zebras, had I to be serious on this.
The Warrior - 9 years ago
I'd rather not see any new races, how about just a little more history on what we already have.
Maltrazz - 9 years ago
I'm genuinely surprised that the Umbrum - Shadow Ponies - are not on the list. 'Other' for me.
gyashaa - 9 years ago
@Nathan: Dafuq are you talking about? Fluffle Puff is the first and ONLY thing that came to mind. Lol
I would love to see them explore other zebras and have them not rhyme at all... just to shake things up.
Marcus - 9 years ago
There are no bat ponies, they are just wearing costumes. We saw Rainbow Dash and the rest of the Mane 6 dressed as "bat ponies" in that alternate reality.
John - 9 years ago
Based on the season 5 finale and the fact they're never mentioned as a pony race in their own right, I'm guessing Bat Ponies are just Pegasi enchanted by Luna or something.
Like Nazgul or something.
nathan - 9 years ago
I am honestly really disappointing that fluffy ponies are on here. It's pointless to include them as they would NEVER be featured in the show as their origin is very NSFW and full of gore and sex. Not Fluffle Puff-esque as is usually assumed.
I say Sea Ponies, shoo be doo, shoo shoo be doo!
We should have fluffy ponies because fluffle puff would be in the show!
If I see a plane pony in this cartoon, I'm going to kill someone.
@VanillaTurtledove
He was holding the idiot ball every time he came to a worker who said they were doing something on official orders for the public good, and ignored it. If you can't see that, then I am sorry, but you are also holding the idiot ball. Spike has been shown to be smarter than that. He was a jerk in the second half of the episode, but he was holding the idiot ball for the first half.
I note that you only address the weakest and least important of my three criticisms of the episode. I'm unsure if that means you agree with the other two criticisms, or simply didn't notice the majority of my post. The plot-contrivance and subsequent forced moral is the main issue with the episode. This is the same issue as with What About Discord, and it is the same issue that you are pointing out in Crusaders of the Lost Mark.
@Badly Drawn Turtle,
How exactly does Spike hold the "idiot ball" the entire episode? It seemed like he was between a rock and a hard place, desperately trying to do what he was told had to be done. So, through much self sacrifice, he was able to fulfill the princesses wishes to keep Twilight well rested and undisturbed. Halfway through the episode, he comes to the realization that he can exploit his newly gained power and ends up taking it too far. So, I would think the criticism, if any, would be that Spike was turned into a "jerk" in this episode instead of an "idiot", somewhat similar to Owl's Well that Ends Well (which is another episode I fully disagree is trash; granted, it may be just a sorta mediocre episode imo, but Princess Spike, I feel was legitimately well executed).
The episode in question, while not as flamboyantly dream fulfiling/ over-the-top as other episodes from the season (Cutie Map parts 1 & 2, Bloom & Gloom, Make New Friends but Keep Discord, Slice of Life, and Crusaders of the Lost Mark are wonderful examples of such), managed to maintain a very "real" dynamic of characterizations/interactions (which was actually another strong point of this season, clearly exhibited in episodes such as Amending Fences and Made in Manehatten).
I feel as though the execution of an episode is more important than what merely looks good on paper. Crusaders of the Lost Mark is a great illustration of what I mean; it has amazingly awesome things coming at you nonstop throughout the course of the episode, BUT the way the episode plays out, makes the character interactions/ characterizations (for the most part) seem completely atypical of what would happen within a cohesive, well-written narrative. Pip showing up at the door asking for help with his campaign, Diamond Tiara's mother suddenly appearing out of nowhere and Tiara's incomprehensibly abrupt change to the side of righteousness, are all things that detract from the episode very greatly imho. I would have liked to see these components brought up in previous episodes so as not to make it seem like these things are all just mere plot points stuffed in by the writers to achieve the ideal conclusion. This being said, the conclusion of this episode rectifies two long standing problems within MLP; Diamond Tiara's dead end characterizations which were extremely one-note, and lacked any depth whatsoever, as well as the monotonous "Cutie Mark Acquisition Program" which the CMC were always obsessed with, hardly allowing a single appearance of said characters without their dialogue revolving around getting their tramp stamps. Now that these two narrative vices have been done away with, the writers have more more flexibility of what they can achieve with episodes centering around the CMC as well as Diamond Tiara/ Silver Spoon. This is a very good thing. However, the plot contrivances in order to reach this conclusion were something I think could have been improved on significantly.
The reason I concentrated on Crusaders of the Lost Mark in so much detail is because that episode is one which seems to be very widely well-received by the fans, while Princess Spike is not. Therefore, it may be able to give you some insight as to why I consider the latter to be such a good episode.
On another note, What about Discord was probably the strangest episode I have ever seen, as I remember during my initial watch-through expecting a huge turnabout throughout the entirety of the episode which never came about. Either there is something I'm missing here or that episode makes no freakin' sense whatsoever.
Plane Ponies? Like half airplane, half pony? That's horrifying. Perhaps you meant Plains Ponies.
Wheelpones.
@VanillaTurtledove
Princess Spike is objectively a bad episode. Spike holds the idiot ball the whole time, and the situation leading to the disaster is utterly contrived. But those are forgivable. What is not, is that the episode's moral fails, because the writer set it up wrong; in other words, this is a case of objectively bad writing. The moral of the episode is that you shouldn't let power go to your head. Okay, great… except the culminating disaster that is supposed to make the moral clear wasn't caused by Spike being selfish. All of the parts of the chain that led to the wrecking of the hall were honest mistakes back when Spike was just following Twilight's instructions. They have no connection to the moral, which makes the moral forced.
This episode had a lot of disapproval when it came out, so it's also a bad episode by polling. Fun fact: The other worst episode of the season, by similar measures, was What About Discord, which is the only episode to have the same writer as Princess Spike. It seems we have an objectively bad writer on the team.
Whatchu on about, Zebra lover? Princess Spike was an extremely solid episode (one of Spike's finest, might I add). Please explain to me, in detail, why you consider it to be utter trash.
And yes, Sea ponies, sea ponies, blah, blah, blah~
FLUTTER PONIES
Other. ZEBRAS. Come on. Five seasons and Zecora remains the most underused character, with the biggest potential for future stories. Instead of redoing episodes we've seen already (Canterlot Boutique), and complete garbage (Princess Spike), the writers could actually do something good like the Zebra nation or have Zecora appear for reasons other than a magical solution to some problem.
I can't help but reel out of utter shame at the inevitable outcome of this poll.
The fact that Bat ponies are persisting to dominate the other options, and more importantly, the motherfucking SEA PONIES, is abso-bally-lutely beyond my comprehension.
DRAGONPONIES
Other: Deer Ponies(that should be a choice, I swear...)
I think Bat Ponies would be amazing.
The Luna novel by G.M. Berrow 'Princess Luna and the festival of the winter moon' Confirm that Bat Ponies are a race who live secluded within a mountain and often have clashes with the local dragons.
Now whether the novels are canon or not is up for debate. I look at it kinda like star wars canon, if its not contradicted by the show, its in. :)
I hit Other because I want Zebras :(
The rest are funny options, and Bat ponies are my fav on this one. But Zebras, had I to be serious on this.
I'd rather not see any new races, how about just a little more history on what we already have.
I'm genuinely surprised that the Umbrum - Shadow Ponies - are not on the list. 'Other' for me.
@Nathan: Dafuq are you talking about? Fluffle Puff is the first and ONLY thing that came to mind. Lol
I'd like to see a longma.
ZEBRAS!
I would love to see them explore other zebras and have them not rhyme at all... just to shake things up.
There are no bat ponies, they are just wearing costumes. We saw Rainbow Dash and the rest of the Mane 6 dressed as "bat ponies" in that alternate reality.
Based on the season 5 finale and the fact they're never mentioned as a pony race in their own right, I'm guessing Bat Ponies are just Pegasi enchanted by Luna or something.
Like Nazgul or something.
I am honestly really disappointing that fluffy ponies are on here. It's pointless to include them as they would NEVER be featured in the show as their origin is very NSFW and full of gore and sex. Not Fluffle Puff-esque as is usually assumed.
Other... Tatzlpony
SHOO BE DOO SHOOP SHOOP BE DOO
Ah ha ha ha! I picked plant ponies. Look at where it's at in the poll! X^D
I only picked bat ponies over sea ponies because of the increased chance of more Luna or Luna history. I'd really like both though.
Errr...Where is the Deer option?
SEA PONIES ALL THE FREAKIN' WAY! LIKE, HOLY CRAP!